RD Formula Manager - Season 7

[kedy89]

In all fairness, you strategy always seems to have been dragged out of an excel spreadsheet you've made, so there's no point trying anything else.

To be honest, that was the very first thing I did when I joined in S3, figuring out tyre and fuel values. I scrapped the former in the meantime since they seem to depend on too many factors and, do it by rule of thumb. 63 values for the different pace-rev combinations to be precise, of which 60-70% were deduce from the ones I got by using them. The rest is a simple look-up formula I googled.
The strategy still is something I come up with after considering weather, tyre usage, track length, and overtaking difficulty. The only thing the sheet does for me is to calculate the fuel usage for the pace/revs I want to use.

Honestly, I think it's hardly a surprise that people copy you when
1) you're so amazingly good at this game
2) you posted it before anyone else, so the others could easily see it
3) people (including me) are struggling to get the fuel loads to match up with the paces exactly spot on, either running out or overfuelling.
This especially applies to new entries for this event who haven't done the 10 in-season races to have even a rough estimate of how the system works. Because Omer's info isn't enough, but putting more info in that post will likely just turn people away.

Combining those 3 gives people (especially newcomers) a big incentive to copy your strategy. And honestly, it's something to be proud of. People value how good you are.

-

Now, I could have copied your strategy as well and given myself a better chance of winning the event, but I wanted to be original, and I'm not really playing to win, I'm playing to have fun, and to help Omer test out his game. But that's just me. Not everyone is like that.
Even still, I had to look at yours to get a sense of how the medium tyres degrade and how much fuel is burnt on push pace. But just in case my estimates are wrong, I overfuelled about 10% as well.
That's something I've to accept, but it's a good test for Omer, because there will be people (possibly me if I join ) next season who have no idea about this either. And it's also good testing that there are the same strategies, because it gives Omer the chance to test out how the game handles that, as well as how it handles overtakes and a train of drivers on the same pace.

When I made my return in November, I promised myself not to take any game too seriously again. So I see this as a test for Omer, not as an opportunity to win. After all, this is a non-championship event, so we are playing for fun above all. Maybe, you should try to look at it in a similar way. Because I think it's ridiculous that you call everyone "stupid ****s". That's a step too far.

Sorry for the long post Omer. I mean no harm, I only want to clear the air, because I think the words said were not okay.

I thought it's a test for managers on how to give orders for a whole race at once, rather than for Omer to see how it plays out. As far as I can tell the only difference for him is that he has to input all values in one go rather than over several days. As such I didn't see the point in copying a strategy 1:1, since you won't learn anything at all from it. But my guess concerning this is as good as yours

Even if you don't know the fuel values before, Omer gave 5, and you can safely assume that my stints are calculated to have 1l left at the end of each. I used 5 different pace rev combos, so that's 10 in total you have, of the 21 for medium track length. List those, and you might figure out 6 more. The remaining 6 you'd have to guess, and I'd bet that you'd get 3 of them correct, and have 1l too much for the other 3. So worst case should be you end up with a slight bit too much fuel left

 

[Jimlaad43]

I to be honest never liked how each pace-rev combination always gave the same fuel usage without any variation. There needs to be some sort of variation so it comes down to who can react best to each lap result, rather than who planned it all on the first lap and then pasted in the orders each time.

I'm not too sure if this game works with a whole race being simmed in one go. Races are all about reacting to unexpected situations and what to do when stuff goes wrong.

 

[rubaru]

Races are all about reacting to unexpected situations and what to do when stuff goes wrong.

Like a safety car? When Omer wanted to try 4 laps per update, we all had to provide conditional orders just in case a safety car came out, or if our HP fell below XX%.

 

[Milos]

But my guess concerning this is as good as yours

You're probably more informed since I only had a glance at the posts before I was tagged to get a rough idea of what is going on. So you're probably right

Even if you don't know the fuel values before, Omer gave 5, and you can safely assume that my stints are calculated to have 1l left at the end of each. I used 5 different pace rev combos, so that's 10 in total you have, of the 21 for medium track length. List those, and you might figure out 6 more. The remaining 6 you'd have to guess, and I'd bet that you'd get 3 of them correct, and have 1l too much for the other 3. So worst case should be you end up with a slight bit too much fuel left

Yeah, since we were given the burn rates for the fastest and the slowest pace, I assumed the other paces were in between. Which I used in my strategy.
At the same time, I also thought I had it in Italy S5 and I bottled it two times. So I don't want to take such a risk again
While it might make sense for the two of us, not everyone thinks that way, and not everyone wants to think that much about it. You say you have an excel sheet of all the burn rates, and that's fine. I did that also when I was playing in seasons 3-5. But not everyone has the time to build such a sheet, or even wants to build such a sheet. Some people want to just play the game, and all this thinking and calculus is a bit too much for them.
Now, a 1:1 mirror isn't exactly great for the game, but as you say, your strategy is perfect to the 1l.. so it is a bit tempting

 

[Milos]

I to be honest never liked how each pace-rev combination always gave the same fuel usage without any variation. There needs to be some sort of variation so it comes down to who can react best to each lap result, rather than who planned it all on the first lap and then pasted in the orders each time.

I'm not too sure if this game works with a whole race being simmed in one go. Races are all about reacting to unexpected situations and what to do when stuff goes wrong.

From what I remember, conditional orders were never a thing, and I don't see that changing. It's much more difficult for Omer not knowing exactly what pace-rev combo is run each lap. And much more chance of errors as a result.
What could happen, is that the updates stop the moment a SC comes out (let's say it comes out on lap x), the picture of lap x is posted here and managers have the option to change their strategies from lap x until the race end.

 

[kedy89]

You're probably more informed since I only had a glance at the posts before I was tagged to get a rough idea of what is going on. So you're probably right


Yeah, since we were given the burn rates for the fastest and the slowest pace, I assumed the other paces were in between. Which I used in my strategy.
At the same time, I also thought I had it in Italy S5 and I bottled it two times. So I don't want to take such a risk again
While it might make sense for the two of us, not everyone thinks that way, and not everyone wants to think that much about it. You say you have an excel sheet of all the burn rates, and that's fine. I did that also when I was playing in seasons 3-5. But not everyone has the time to build such a sheet, or even wants to build such a sheet. Some people want to just play the game, and all this thinking and calculus is a bit too much for them.
Now, a 1:1 mirror isn't exactly great for the game, but as you say, your strategy is perfect to the 1l.. so it is a bit tempting

S5 still had the percentages, which the actual liter values I don't think that'd happen again .

Obviously you don't need a complex sheet like we had, just noting the actual values gets you a long way. And I dare say using them with a calculator each time still is less time consuming than constructing a sheet to do the calculations.

From what I remember, conditional orders were never a thing, and I don't see that changing. It's much more difficult for Omer not knowing exactly what pace-rev combo is run each lap. And much more chance of errors as a result.
What could happen, is that the updates stop the moment a SC comes out (let's say it comes out on lap x), the picture of lap x is posted here and managers have the option to change their strategies from lap x until the race end.

Certain conditional orders were allowed when we did the 4 lap updates in S7, e.g. to prevent chassis fail after a collision (pit when car health below 10% or alike).

 

[Jimlaad43]

To be honest, the way each race was run isn't the thing that needs fixing. What we had worked and was enjoyable. It was the whole upgrades and drivers that needed changing as it became ever harder for new people to be competitive, and fewer engines were worth having.

 

[kedy89]

To be honest, the way each race was run isn't the thing that needs fixing. What we had worked and was enjoyable. It was the whole upgrades and drivers that needed changing as it became ever harder for new people to be competitive, and fewer engines were worth having.

Certainly agree to the 2nd part. However you can't deny that too often people missed the updates, and screwed up their races as result. I dare say that helped me big time to win the titles the last 2 seasons. So I wouldn't say it is something that shouldn't be addressed.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Missing updates is part of the game though, like forgetting to make buys in FFG or not remembering which race format is next in FR

 

[Milos]

Well yeah, I did the calculus by hand. I just noted the values down in the sheet. Didn't think of having a formula that does it for me, but it's a good idea, and I definetly could have made one.
Still though. While yes, anyone could collect all the burn data, it's more work than some people want to do. At least it was when I was managing Blackcat. Which you're probably aware of


Since I haven't played the game for 2 seasons now, I'm probably out of sync saying anything on how it should be improved. But, in case Omer takes it into consideration, I do like what Jim is saying.

 

[Audi]

This is a bit of a stab in the dark being new to this, anything above last will be a positive for me

Qualifying
Focus, High, Medium tyres, Max fuel

Lap 1
Safe Low

Lap 2
Safe Low

Lap 3
Safe Low

Lap 4
Give all Medium
Pit end of lap for Mediums, no fuel added

Lap 5
Steady Low

Lap 6
Safe Low

Lap 7
Safe Low

Lap 8
Focus Medium

Lap 9
Safe Low
Pit end of lap onto hards, add 25 litres of fuel

Lap 10
Steady Low, use Ers

Lap 11
Steady Low, use Ers

Lap 12
Steady Medium, use Ers

Lap 13
Steady Medium, use Ers
Pit end of lap onto softs, add 30 litres of fuel

Lap 14
Focus Medium

Lap 15
Steady Medium

Lap 16
Max Push, High, use Ers

 

[Omer Said]

This discussion is nice. Plenty of feedback. Thanks!

It was obvious from the very start that the game is best played 2 or 4-laps per update system. But wanted to test this single-update anyway for; 1) fun 2) wanted to attract some attention from the non-players as a single show race could interest them 3) might surprise us and present a better format.

Jim's unpredictability feedback is something I have been trying to do. Mistakes are one thing. Track/Tyre Wear Level/Weather variations bring some of it. Fuel loads affecting tyre wear also spice things up. Then there is the "unexpected issue" system.

What is more feels like too much randomization and luck. There might be more random failures such as "fuel rig failure" which increases fuel consumption for a few laps. Or "suspension problem" which increases tyre wear for a few laps.

All in all, we will have a semi-reset in this season and it might already bring a lot more competition. I might also change all tyre wear/fuel consumption values a bit to invalidate all existing strategies.

 

[rubaru]

I like the idea of random failures and knowing what they are. We can have a chance to compensate with the orders if we know, for example, that fuel consumption will increase by 25% until I repair it.

 

[Azabadaza]

The are some valid points here. I think the main points I've got out of this is that:

-Strategies for a 1 update race will need to be PM'd in the future. I personally didn't look in depth at the race strats already posted in the thread, preferring instead to use my excel file I'd been using for the past 2 seasons. I actually almost completely copied my strategy from Japan, obviously with different values. If this resource wasn't available, say if values all change next season, it would be very tempting to copy the strategy of the best in the game.

-I like the idea of the "fuel rig failure" or "suspension problem". If these were introduced however, the first few races would be extremely difficult to strategise, especially if tyre wear/fuel consumption values are changed. Care would also need to be taken with deciding when these failures occur. I we have 4 lap updates like the end of S7 and the issue occurs on lap 1 of the update, it'll be another 3 laps until you can fix the issue. Maybe an engineer can be purchased to pull your driver in? or the issue only occurs in lap 3 or 4 of an update? If these failures are too OP as well, they will completely change outcomes of races, and everyone would be asking for a nerf. Rubaru's suggestion of a fixed value, such as a 25% increase per lap, is a solid suggestion as it would allow some accurate planning, not just random values.

Personally I think that we should be very careful when making huge changes/completely overhaul the game. While small changes can make the game better, we don't want to completely change the game.

To do something about the 2 or 3 OP engines, would it change the game up too much to begin with a variety of equal engines, with the same or similar values? This would start the season off pretty even and teams who do the best will end up with the best engines. I don't know what you could do from season to season, because resetting engine values would harm the continual feel of the series. But this would even the series again and allow it to continue with a clean slate. Otherwise, if new managers join it'll take a number of series to catch up. It took me 3 seasons (I think) to be competitive, and that was only after I poached a top driver and had put heaps of money developing our chassis for the next season. Even in season 7 I was not competitive until I moved to Aston Martin engines.

Although this race is yet to be run, I still think the 2-4-...-4-2 lap updates work the best.

 

[Milos]

-I like the idea of the "fuel rig failure" or "suspension problem". If these were introduced however, the first few races would be extremely difficult to strategise, especially if tyre wear/fuel consumption values are changed.

That's what I thought, but at the same time, they are failures, you don't expect them, and as a result, you can't really play around them.

Rubaru's suggestion of a fixed value, such as a 25% increase per lap, is a solid suggestion as it would allow some accurate planning, not just random values.

A 25% increase is poor, or increase by any static amount, because you can still add that to your sheet and calculate around it. I believe the point Jim is making is that having these sheets should not be a requirement in order to be competitive, which I can stand behind. (I felt this was the case in season 5, but maybe it changed already idk)

 

[Jimlaad43]

The game needs to work for people who just look at the results of each lap and decide right then what to do. Obviously of you put some effort in it will help, but we don't want everyone to be living off an excel spreadsheet

 

[kedy89]

I think the engines have been the biggest factor when it came to separating the grid. If you had a regular engine, there simply was no way to keep up with the development rate of the player manufactured. Especially if you were the only one using it. The test driver skills made that gap even bigger. Both Aidan and I used it for speed only, and while I had it too with Ferrari, it was impossible to keep up. It would've been the same for any other engine, unless there were 2 or more players pumping in upgrades. With RIC and BEL I probably had one of the best lineups on the grid (at season start), but couldn't even get into the points on my own.

This led to all teams (except sister) using Aston and Lambo last season. From then on it depended on driver skills and strategy.

The game needs to work for people who just look at the results of each lap and decide right then what to do. Obviously of you put some effort in it will help, but we don't want everyone to be living off an excel spreadsheet

It does, but you can't really expect them to do as good as someone who thinks a bit about the race strategy before. And once again, my sheet just calculates fuel usage. I still come up with pitstops, pace rev combos etc. on my own. Not like I enter 16 laps, medium track length, medium overtaking, no rain, click a button and get an ideal strategy.

 

[Milos]

It does, but you can't really expect them to do as good as someone who thinks a bit about the race strategy before. And once again, my sheet just calculates fuel usage. I still come up with pitstops, pace rev combos etc. on my own. Not like I enter 16 laps, medium track length, medium overtaking, no rain, click a button and get an ideal strategy.

I believe the point is there is too big of a results difference between those two types of managers.
There already are managers that play like that, but if new people decide to join after this test, they might play like that as well (especially in the first season), and the game should adopt to that I think.

I'm not saying we should ban refuelling and equalize this gap. But I am saying steps need to be made so the manager that doesn't want to collect the burn data and do math with it should also have a chance to be somewhat competitive.
(again though, this may have changed in seasons 6-7, in which case I am just talking nonsense right now )

 

[Omer Said]

The game needs to work for people who just look at the results of each lap and decide right then what to do. Obviously of you put some effort in it will help, but we don't want everyone to be living off an excel spreadsheet

Then there should be a list showing wear values of all possible pace-rev combinations, and it would ruin the game. I think there is not much the game can do. New managers can load some safe fuel values in their first races. Maybe private testings can be done to test desired combinations by the managers.

 

[Jimlaad43]

All I'm suggesting is that each pace-rev combo varies by up to +/-2 L each lap. Push Medium might burn 17 litres right now, but if each lap it can be anything in the range of 15-19L, it would make it slightly more interesting. We already have variations in tyre wear with mistakes and lockups, why not with fuel too?
The worst thing is the whole "Keep paces behind the safety car". Everyone should switch to Safe Low on the second lap of the safety car regardless. Keep revs for one lap as everyone catches up, but after that, everyone switches to a lower pace whatever.