protocolgeorge
Premium
Just placed my order here in Canada for a 3DOF QS-220 and QS-BT1, should arrive in 3 months or so. Will post my experience when it arrives.
Qubic System - QS-BT1 Multi-purpose, Dual Channel, Direct Drive Seat Belt Tensioner
- Thread starter Mr Latte
- Start date
Very keen to know how you rate the BT1 head to head against the SimX GBelt ? It is quieter no doubt but are the effects better or more refined overall ? In what way does it improve upon GBelt ? It does cost a fair margin more.
I have one of these. This is so great. Pricier than my Simucube, but also an important addition to my rig. I'm very happy.
Sure thing, I have been tweaking settings quite a bit getting a good feel of how it all comes together though, so still just have early impressions. My experience so far is very positive, moreso than that of the G-Belt overall. I can at least say that if you only care about stuff like brake and corner tension on the G-Belt, those specific effects don't feel too differently here.
It's really everything else the BT-1 does that puts it far ahead of the G-Belt I'd argue. Use of haptic vibrations, far friendlier software, a stronger community and direct engagement with developers through discord channels that has put it far above the SimXperience...umm experience.
I cannot overstate how effectively fantastic the vibrations add to this device. Certainly many of us have strapped bass shakers to our rigs and seats to provide similar effects to RPM or Engine vibrations or rumble strips...but the BT-1 is delivering those effects both through the chassis and belts via tandem vibrations and tension pulling that is just really unique. Sitting at idle with the belts slightly tugging and in rhythm with the engine purr is a new experience. You can even adjust the "phase shift" to have the belts vibrate in tandem or off-kilter(alternate at varying speeds) to simulate different engine feel as well. Cruising over rumble strips similarly shakes the belts and the seat accordingly and I had to look to ensure my shakers were off as I felt the strips underneath me and in my shoulders.
The software is also incredibly friendly and far superior to SimCmmander(which I never liked personally). I did have experience using it years ago with the NLR v3 Seat mover, but its grown quite a bit since then. But really its just exceptionally simple to use. It now has cloud sharing with profile setups(not tried anyone else's yet though), the sliders are easy to suss out and almost everything will just auto-launch without needing as many alt-tabs.
There are some growing pains though. I have had some issues with the braking effect and cornering kind of muddying each other, where its easy to have the brake tension cause the cornering to not be felt as both belts are pulling in already beyond the scope of trailing through a corner. Though I have been testing some recommended fixes like alleviating the brake intensity while pushing the cornering way up but that makes the brake feel a bit weak on straights. It's a balancing act and I feel the effects could use a bit more work on the backend to work in tandem better. It's not that bad an issue though, but its been a lot of fine-tuning.
The Gear shift is awesome but set too high by default(its worth experiencing once though as the feeling is crazy!). Some other effects may also be muddying things as I find the engine effect can cause extra tension as you grow in speed(making the belts tense up so you no longer feel brake or other pulling effects), but it may be due to something else mixing poorly with it and I'm still experimenting to solve that. Oh and the haptics or whatnot can get extremely intense with the engine at high intensity, It feels really cool but definitely will cause huge vibrations throughout the room much like actuators can at high volumes. Most of us knock it wayyy down from default.
They recently added ABS and TC effects(basically simple shake warnings when activated like rev limiter), but I am finding less-is-more works best as usual and when these are on they can muddy other things happening and I prefer to feel those effects in my pedals I think instead. Basically I am still trying to find the best balance of what to keep active.
Ultimately, some may not even care for the added vibrations and especially in this community, they may already have shakers or may not care for the added immersion. The G-Belt worked quite well at delivering strong cornering and braking feel(for some games in my experience...) and to that end, paying far less for that is understandable. I vastly prefer the BT-1 so far but I am giddy over the immersion fluff and am even considering scaling back on some of my shakers due to what this offers.
Mr Latte
Premium
Thanks for comments and detailed usage @No Depth
I certainly, look forward to owning one of these later in the year...
Hard to get much idea with regards just how good the haptics from the harness is in comparison to what effects or hardware people are using on seats. No doubt this will vary a lot too.
RBM seems impressed with the haptics, although to my knowledge he has no experience on his own rig, with (advanced tactile). Well in particular, I refer to multiple units on seats for tailored effect layer roles directed to specific body regions. Performance gains are possible, when we apply a unit with more usable dynamic range (placed to each region) compared to units with more limited peaks.
Simhub also keeps improving, just recently we got the new feature in tactile for "conditional groups". So now it is possible to dedicate effects to "acceleration only" & "decelerating only" scenarios. Giving us more control but still being able to apply all the effects paramaters.
These as potential factors, should enable more effective immersion and creativity. Including more control in scenarios of multiple effects being applied compared to what the BT1 may offer.
Scenarios like trying to feel multiple effects, still needs attention but the best way (i found) to do this effectively. Is to use different body regions in the seat and pedals for specific sensations. All while giving various effects their own felt characteristics via the best working hardware.
I imagine, the potential to work on tactile effects that could combine well with the vibes in the chest. Or to replace some of these with tactile effects over the back/side/underside of a seat is possible.
Would be very surprised, we cannot enhance the experience even further...
I certainly, look forward to owning one of these later in the year...
Hard to get much idea with regards just how good the haptics from the harness is in comparison to what effects or hardware people are using on seats. No doubt this will vary a lot too.
RBM seems impressed with the haptics, although to my knowledge he has no experience on his own rig, with (advanced tactile). Well in particular, I refer to multiple units on seats for tailored effect layer roles directed to specific body regions. Performance gains are possible, when we apply a unit with more usable dynamic range (placed to each region) compared to units with more limited peaks.
Simhub also keeps improving, just recently we got the new feature in tactile for "conditional groups". So now it is possible to dedicate effects to "acceleration only" & "decelerating only" scenarios. Giving us more control but still being able to apply all the effects paramaters.
These as potential factors, should enable more effective immersion and creativity. Including more control in scenarios of multiple effects being applied compared to what the BT1 may offer.
Scenarios like trying to feel multiple effects, still needs attention but the best way (i found) to do this effectively. Is to use different body regions in the seat and pedals for specific sensations. All while giving various effects their own felt characteristics via the best working hardware.
I imagine, the potential to work on tactile effects that could combine well with the vibes in the chest. Or to replace some of these with tactile effects over the back/side/underside of a seat is possible.
Would be very surprised, we cannot enhance the experience even further...
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@No Depth ~ Awesome write-up & nicely detailed, thanks man ! 
I was also once a NLR V3 owner and always loved the Motion Systems platform manager. I think the BT1 will be great in harmony with my Dk6 motion. Like you I will be sparing in what haptics/vibration I enable - less is more you said, they can get real muddy real quick.
I ordered my BT1 last week as I saw they were selling out fast. Now just waiting for it to ship, hopefully this week if I am lucky.
Will you please tell us what seat brand and also seatbelt you have ? Pics would be a bonus but only if you wish to and it is no bother. I have a Trak Racer Rally seat and am getting a 3 inch 5 point belt with the BT1. My concern was the height of the seat belt slots but I think it should be fine based on photos I have seen as the low friction sliders supplied look to raise the height a little, maybe a centimetre ?
Once again thanks heaps for the valuable feedback ! Cheers mate
I was also once a NLR V3 owner and always loved the Motion Systems platform manager. I think the BT1 will be great in harmony with my Dk6 motion. Like you I will be sparing in what haptics/vibration I enable - less is more you said, they can get real muddy real quick.
I ordered my BT1 last week as I saw they were selling out fast. Now just waiting for it to ship, hopefully this week if I am lucky.
Will you please tell us what seat brand and also seatbelt you have ? Pics would be a bonus but only if you wish to and it is no bother. I have a Trak Racer Rally seat and am getting a 3 inch 5 point belt with the BT1. My concern was the height of the seat belt slots but I think it should be fine based on photos I have seen as the low friction sliders supplied look to raise the height a little, maybe a centimetre ?
Once again thanks heaps for the valuable feedback ! Cheers mate
Thanks for the comments @blanes and @Mr Latte
Funny enough a new beta update just dropped this morning that states it aims to adjust the algorithm for clamping on brake and cornering forces, which hopefully fixes one of my minor complaints there.
As for my seat and belt, I use a 2” 4-point belt that works well enough. My seat is the NRG Prisma and I can see myself eventually replacing it as it’s now a bit old and beaten up surviving so many rig updates and changes. It also has a terrible submarine hole placement for belts which is partly why I switched to a 4-point from a prior 6-point. I do find the 4-point works just fine without the anti-sub if the sides are tensioned up enough, but if you have a seat which allows for comfortable pathways for the 5-point to fit, that should work great.
I also have some old 3D printed mounts that fit inside the seat windows to better align the belts but have some new ones coming that contain rollers to feed the belts easier through the window sockets. That I’ll install next week, but what I have works fine and don’t find the belts having frictional issues.
As for the shakers vs belt haptics. Yea this likely will be a long topic that demands more testing beyond my quick comments. I do feel the BT-1 convincingly represents shaking throughout the seat. It’s crazy how rumble strips are felt below me while also simultaneously through the belts on my chest. Like RBM states in his review I was equally impressed when ABS seemed to activate simultaneously in the wheel, pedals(simpatico haptic motors) and belt all running near similar feel. The shakers on my seat bottom felt unecessary and weren’t easily distinguished any longer when added to the mix. That said I did remove all shakers but a sole BK LFE under my seat this weekend as I still prefer that one to handle engine vibrations, at least until I can further tune the belt.
But this will all be subjective and others may have far more impressive shaker tuning that would find the BT-1 less ideal for all scenarios in contrast to what shakers are capable of. I’m definitely more of a clod when it comes to simhub profiles despite all of the guidance this forum and @Mr Latte has provided over the years heh. I should note that not all sims have all bt-1 effects available either, like TC and rumble strips are missing in some, so Simhub helps there with the slack. But that is expected.
I’m looking forward to reading more from others myself for sure.
Funny enough a new beta update just dropped this morning that states it aims to adjust the algorithm for clamping on brake and cornering forces, which hopefully fixes one of my minor complaints there.
As for my seat and belt, I use a 2” 4-point belt that works well enough. My seat is the NRG Prisma and I can see myself eventually replacing it as it’s now a bit old and beaten up surviving so many rig updates and changes. It also has a terrible submarine hole placement for belts which is partly why I switched to a 4-point from a prior 6-point. I do find the 4-point works just fine without the anti-sub if the sides are tensioned up enough, but if you have a seat which allows for comfortable pathways for the 5-point to fit, that should work great.
I also have some old 3D printed mounts that fit inside the seat windows to better align the belts but have some new ones coming that contain rollers to feed the belts easier through the window sockets. That I’ll install next week, but what I have works fine and don’t find the belts having frictional issues.
As for the shakers vs belt haptics. Yea this likely will be a long topic that demands more testing beyond my quick comments. I do feel the BT-1 convincingly represents shaking throughout the seat. It’s crazy how rumble strips are felt below me while also simultaneously through the belts on my chest. Like RBM states in his review I was equally impressed when ABS seemed to activate simultaneously in the wheel, pedals(simpatico haptic motors) and belt all running near similar feel. The shakers on my seat bottom felt unecessary and weren’t easily distinguished any longer when added to the mix. That said I did remove all shakers but a sole BK LFE under my seat this weekend as I still prefer that one to handle engine vibrations, at least until I can further tune the belt.
But this will all be subjective and others may have far more impressive shaker tuning that would find the BT-1 less ideal for all scenarios in contrast to what shakers are capable of. I’m definitely more of a clod when it comes to simhub profiles despite all of the guidance this forum and @Mr Latte has provided over the years heh. I should note that not all sims have all bt-1 effects available either, like TC and rumble strips are missing in some, so Simhub helps there with the slack. But that is expected.
I’m looking forward to reading more from others myself for sure.
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Mr. Latte, I want to share a finding with you.
When I was setting up my belts in preparation for my belt-tensioner's arrival, I noticed that I was able to feel much more of my seat transducers when belted in with simply a lap belt.
Once the belt-tensioner arrived and I fully utilized my 6-point belt, the improvement in sensation remained - if not further improved.
I know it sounds dumb to wear a racing harness on a static rig that doesn't have a belt-tensioner, but it really did improve my experience with the seat-mounted transducers. I recommend you, or anyone else, give it a shot if you haven't already.
When I was setting up my belts in preparation for my belt-tensioner's arrival, I noticed that I was able to feel much more of my seat transducers when belted in with simply a lap belt.
Once the belt-tensioner arrived and I fully utilized my 6-point belt, the improvement in sensation remained - if not further improved.
I know it sounds dumb to wear a racing harness on a static rig that doesn't have a belt-tensioner, but it really did improve my experience with the seat-mounted transducers. I recommend you, or anyone else, give it a shot if you haven't already.
Mr Latte
Premium
Yes I was aware of that, as recall others talking about it in the past.
Probably also depends on what they are using or where/how on a seat they are installed.
Hard to keep track of what everyone has or is using.
Mind if I ask, can you show what tactile you have or give more detail in type of effects you are using?
Personally, I have been persuing nice sensations in particular for speed and g-forces and road sensations but the approach I use combines specific frequencies so that in the operation of several effects. They are working in tandem together, because they are active/related together in various scenarios.
I want to go beyond limitations of someting like, one effect using 40Hz and another effect using 55Hz and something else using 33Hz. Yet none of them are maybe a good match when they are all active together, if you get what I mean? Just that the user went with whatever they liked a feel of, for each effect.
Based on what I see from tactile in effects I was making.
Acc/Dec G-Forces are not just about throttle/brake scenarios because I can feel specific feedback from kerbs that is different to my (Road Rumble) / (Road Vibrations) / (Road Textures).
Have worked on giving each effect, its own adaptable but unique feel and response.
I like combining:
Independent Low Speed / High Speed enhancers with
Road Texture / Acc G / Dec G
Stereo:
Speed Curving / Lat G / R Rumble / R Vibrations
I look forward to feeling the operation of this highly recommended product, with these effects I have been working on for several months. Probably very different to what is already out their in tactile at the moment and working independently in stereo pairs, over shoulders, sides, lower back.
Should be awesome having both complementing one another!
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Sure, no problem.
My setup is very simple: 4x Dayton pucks on my seat and 4x Dayton pucks on my pedal plate (a 120x40 extrusion).
Effects are Front and Rear Wheel Lock and Wheel Slip, both at 74Hz +/- 2Hz.
I think I know what you mean by the different frequencies buzzing at once. That's a limitation I ran into quickly when using these pucks.
I get my speed cues via VR and a wind simulator. I tried using tactile for speed, but I found it kind of annoying. I probably the gain too high.
The belt-tensioner really compliments my simple setup because the braking effect and g-force effect really helps me manage my tyres before they lose grip. And when they do lose grip, the tactile blends in nicely. This combination really helped me drive quicker, and become much more consistent during races. I'm a very competitive simracer, so I'm always looking for ways to help me go faster.
I do really like the road texture sensation and find that it helps tremendously with immersion, but have found it distracting for fast laps because I lose the sense for wheel slip. Maybe if I choose to add a yaw platform to my sim rig, will I decide to convert my tactile towards road texture.
My setup is very simple: 4x Dayton pucks on my seat and 4x Dayton pucks on my pedal plate (a 120x40 extrusion).
Effects are Front and Rear Wheel Lock and Wheel Slip, both at 74Hz +/- 2Hz.
I think I know what you mean by the different frequencies buzzing at once. That's a limitation I ran into quickly when using these pucks.
I get my speed cues via VR and a wind simulator. I tried using tactile for speed, but I found it kind of annoying. I probably the gain too high.
The belt-tensioner really compliments my simple setup because the braking effect and g-force effect really helps me manage my tyres before they lose grip. And when they do lose grip, the tactile blends in nicely. This combination really helped me drive quicker, and become much more consistent during races. I'm a very competitive simracer, so I'm always looking for ways to help me go faster.
I do really like the road texture sensation and find that it helps tremendously with immersion, but have found it distracting for fast laps because I lose the sense for wheel slip. Maybe if I choose to add a yaw platform to my sim rig, will I decide to convert my tactile towards road texture.
Mr Latte
Premium
Ive found that a better level of immersion is not necessarily tied down to usages of a singular effect. Or looking upon effects and treating them as different but singular events. Yes we also want to avoid tactile mush, if combined effects then compete against one another, but their are ways around this....
Advancing Tactile:
We need effects to be made and utilised over the users body via options to suit users preferences, to achieve ways effects do not drown out each other.
In my experience, an excellent way to do this is to apply 3 key rules.
Install tactile hardware that increases the usable dynamic range that can be incorporated into effects. Then being able to use muliple body regions to deliver these different effects, so each can be better detected to key body areas. Lastly, to build effects that do not use frequencies that are badly matched but instead use methods based on musical principles.
We can also see for instance lots of people focus on making certain effects. The custom wheelslip effects are a notable example. But why guys, do we look upon scenarios like "slip" only as an individual element?
Different Perspective:
As an example, why dont we seek to apply multiple elements, combining various effects to be active during a "slip" scenario, such as:
Speed
Speed Curving
G- Loads
Road Texture
Wheelslip
With these, the felt sensation varies based on each of these elements generated telemetry values. Not just one element, or singlular effect focused on representing the core of that track scenario.
Having, each effect made utilising frequencies that are musically compatible with each other. So I highlight the question... Can we then not have much more advanced effects, to go beyond the "less is more" attitude that is hampered by using typical methods?
These effects above as examples all play their own role in common track scenarios.
I believe much better immersion is possible for people but, also in an affordable way than what they are experiencing with TT25 Pucks or solutions like Slip Angle using BST1 that already I see owners referring to using/owning.
Curious to learn what becomes the most enjoyed effects from the haptics the harness offers. Seeing already some are not that caring about a few. Although it is expected that this too struggles a little in delivering multiple effects sensations that are operating at once.
Advancing Tactile:
We need effects to be made and utilised over the users body via options to suit users preferences, to achieve ways effects do not drown out each other.
In my experience, an excellent way to do this is to apply 3 key rules.
Install tactile hardware that increases the usable dynamic range that can be incorporated into effects. Then being able to use muliple body regions to deliver these different effects, so each can be better detected to key body areas. Lastly, to build effects that do not use frequencies that are badly matched but instead use methods based on musical principles.
We can also see for instance lots of people focus on making certain effects. The custom wheelslip effects are a notable example. But why guys, do we look upon scenarios like "slip" only as an individual element?
Different Perspective:
As an example, why dont we seek to apply multiple elements, combining various effects to be active during a "slip" scenario, such as:
Speed
Speed Curving
G- Loads
Road Texture
Wheelslip
With these, the felt sensation varies based on each of these elements generated telemetry values. Not just one element, or singlular effect focused on representing the core of that track scenario.
Having, each effect made utilising frequencies that are musically compatible with each other. So I highlight the question... Can we then not have much more advanced effects, to go beyond the "less is more" attitude that is hampered by using typical methods?
These effects above as examples all play their own role in common track scenarios.
I believe much better immersion is possible for people but, also in an affordable way than what they are experiencing with TT25 Pucks or solutions like Slip Angle using BST1 that already I see owners referring to using/owning.
Curious to learn what becomes the most enjoyed effects from the haptics the harness offers. Seeing already some are not that caring about a few. Although it is expected that this too struggles a little in delivering multiple effects sensations that are operating at once.
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Even with my QS-BT1, I actually use only 3 effects: Brake, Sideways Acceleration, and Centrifugal Force. I tried all the other effects and while they work great, I find them distracting for competitive simracing.
I can see that you understand the ingredients to making properly immersive tactile, but some - maybe even most - people don't know how to do it. I liken it to being able to setup a car: I know exactly what needs to be adjusted after taking a quick lap, but others don't know where to start. I'm one of those people that don't know where to start regarding tactile, and I would much rather spend my time driving instead of testing & tuning tactile settings.
In the same vein, once I got a decent setup for my QS-BT1, I stopped adjusting it and spent my time driving. In VR, I don't really notice it (except while driving an F1 car), but it's immediately noticeable if it's not running. It's become an important piece of equipment for my simracing experience, and I'm glad I decided to purchase it. In fact, I probably would never have done so if I hadn't seen this thread of yours - so thank you Mr. Latte!
I can see that you understand the ingredients to making properly immersive tactile, but some - maybe even most - people don't know how to do it. I liken it to being able to setup a car: I know exactly what needs to be adjusted after taking a quick lap, but others don't know where to start. I'm one of those people that don't know where to start regarding tactile, and I would much rather spend my time driving instead of testing & tuning tactile settings.
In the same vein, once I got a decent setup for my QS-BT1, I stopped adjusting it and spent my time driving. In VR, I don't really notice it (except while driving an F1 car), but it's immediately noticeable if it's not running. It's become an important piece of equipment for my simracing experience, and I'm glad I decided to purchase it. In fact, I probably would never have done so if I hadn't seen this thread of yours - so thank you Mr. Latte!
I was surprised how much I like the vertical acceleration effect, didn't seem that important beforehand but getting the compression at the bottom of Raidillion and loosening of tension at the crest before cork screw really sort of clicked the product to me. In rally they can be bit overbearing though so needs tuning...
Mr Latte
Premium
Can you or others give more info on what varation you find between different titles?
What I mean is, do users find they need to tweek effects output levels just a little or much between different sims or cars?
Suppose though, we may see profiles in general for specific sims but others that are tuned for specific cars once people get more of a handle with tuning?
I've strictly been playing Assetto Corsa, but I drive a variety of cars. Initially, I set up the BT1 to squeeze a bit strongly for a street car, but then became overwhelmed when driving an F1 car.
I could have set up a variety of profiles for different classes of cars, but decided against it for 2 reasons:
1) I would rather spend my time driving than messing around with settings
2) Using the same profile would add some relativity to the g-force of the cars.
In the end, I adjusted the squeezing force to one that I could endure over a long period of time, while testing in a Formula car, and used that as my profile. It feels a bit weak while driving a GT86, but it's still having a noticeable effect.
I could have set up a variety of profiles for different classes of cars, but decided against it for 2 reasons:
1) I would rather spend my time driving than messing around with settings
2) Using the same profile would add some relativity to the g-force of the cars.
In the end, I adjusted the squeezing force to one that I could endure over a long period of time, while testing in a Formula car, and used that as my profile. It feels a bit weak while driving a GT86, but it's still having a noticeable effect.
So far I've tended to first setup each sim with pretty similar values and then fine tune accordingly - I think like @simracingfanatic describes, the differences come from trying to replicate different disciplines and types of vehicles. Like the rally I mentioned, the car is doing much more up/down movement than in track racing and thus I had to adjust the vertical acceleration values to smaller than in track racing sims.
Going forward I can see people making separate profiles for open wheelers/tin tops/etc like there are for instance for simucube wheel bases. Personally I think I'll more likely split my profiles according to hardware as I like to switch between a bucket seat and a more formula style one - just need to mod the formula seat to be compatible with seat belts
Going forward I can see people making separate profiles for open wheelers/tin tops/etc like there are for instance for simucube wheel bases. Personally I think I'll more likely split my profiles according to hardware as I like to switch between a bucket seat and a more formula style one - just need to mod the formula seat to be compatible with seat belts
protocolgeorge
Premium
I ordered these belts in preperation for mine to arrive as from what I read the 5pt is more comfortable as the center belt keeps everything in line.I just managed to order one of these....but I now need seat belts
It looks like the consensus seems to be for a 2" 4 harnesses. Can anyone give me any links / specific product recommendations (the UK market would be amazing)?
Thanks!
5PT - SFI 16.1 Certified Racing Harness 3
The up-and-coming innovator of racing equipment, BRAUM ®, is proud to present SFI and FIA approved racing harnesses. If you plan to participate in any form of motorsports, these harnesses are a must. They lock you firmly in place during hard cornering, keeping you where you want to be—in your...
braumracing.com
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From my experience I would go for a 6 point that is used like a 5 point.. It is basically a 5 point but instead of a single belt in the center it has two 2" belts so they turn sideways and the width sits agains the inside of each leg. Its more comfortable while at the same time being no more hassle to use than a 5 point.I just managed to order one of these....but I now need seat belts
It looks like the consensus seems to be for a 2" 4 harnesses. Can anyone give me any links / specific product recommendations (the UK market would be amazing)?
Thanks!
being in the UK demontweeks have a lot, but there may be better places, at least they have a lot of pics to give you an idea https://www.demon-tweeks.com/nz/motorsport/seats-harnesses/harnesses-accessories/
Personally I don't think that the 4 point is as suited for an active belt.
