Options for tactile feedback setup.

[Gargamadua]

Hi, i'm about to embark on my journey into tactile feedback, but I have to be honest and whilst I think I have grasped the basics things are pretty unclear as to what my options are, after watching You tube, reading the posts here and on reddit etc, there's appears to be a huge array of option and a fair amount of conflicting information.

My rig is a self built 8020 profile and pretty damn solid, and my chosen seat (Sparco R333) is quite padded with no real options to mount any exciters directly to it.

A couple of pictures of it for reference:

As far as my options go, I'm more interested in quality than budget, that doesn't mean my budget is unlimited, it more of a case that I'd pay the extra to get the setup right at the outset rather than try and do it at a budget and then end up paying more in the long run due to upgrading.

With the rig being solid I think I have pretty much written off the budget end of the market, I don't think I'd get enough feedback and the money would be better spent towards better kit.

Ultimately my goal is for as realistic feedback as I can within my budget, do i go the whole hog or do I start with a more simple solution and improve it as I become more familiar with tactile in general, I'm not sure at this point and the more I read the more I'm confused. If I had to put a figure on budget I would say £1500 ish is my limit.

I appreciate that I will need to isolate the rig as well as the seat/pedals as well as buy cables and connectors, so I'm not including any costs of these in my budget as they are necessities and ultimately the cost of these will depend on what I end up buying.

To that end I've come up with a few rough ideas but I'm not sure which is the better option.

Option 1. (probably overkill and the most expensive)

4 x Buttkicker advance, one per corner

2 x NX1000D or NX3000D for the 4 x advance

1 x Buttkicker (not sure which) mounted between the 2 seat rails which will be isolated from the rig, plus amp to suit (probably another 1000D)

Option 2. (Similar idea but cheaper)

Pretty much as Option 1 but replacing the 2 x front advance and seat unit with Aurasound AST-2B-4's or similar, and suitable amp, keeping the 2x advance and nx amp for the rear.

Option 3.

2 x Buttkicker Advance, setup for left and right or front and rear 1 x Nx1000D, again not sure which under seat unit & amp

Option 4.

2 x Buttkicker Advance, 1 x Nx1000D setup for left and right or front and rear.

Any comments or suggestions are welcomed, I may be way off with my thinking, I really don't know at this point, I'm guessing that I might be best just starting with a single unit + amp and build from there.

 

[Mr Latte]

What Andrew is referring to is called a modal response. Specifically, modes above the 1st mode. 2nd, 3rd and higher order modal responses are multiples of some resonance (1st order modal response).

One should NOT attempt to configure the stimulus (the BK/DSP) to avoid these modal responses. Instead, the base platform should be designed to DAMP the amplitude of these modes by design

No try again in simple English in layman's terms to tell people how to install and configure their tactile. Clearly DSP is useable and with benefits for bass and frequency control.

 

[metalnwood]

Sometimes, if something works then it's good enough?

Yes, the area of a particular circle might be 72.46 units but only 1 out of 100 people suffered on actually finding it was 72.4698

edit, lots of posts, this was in response to Andrew putting the material on his plate and noticing nothing detrimental to his tactile other than the noise gone. If that was first experience I wouldnt bother doing 10 experiments with smaller pieces either.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

All fancy talk....

So your own findings with tuning tactile and advice is to do what?
It appears we have lots of advice on hardware or plates being offered by people who do not even own the products.

I will certainly try the recommendations put forward.

No try again in simple English in layman's terms to tell people how to install and configure their tactile.

Hardly fancy talk.

But ok....Simple English: If the seat / mount is buzzing or creating harmonic responses fix the buzzing/harmonics directly with damping material, shape, or restraint. DSP should be used to manage the transducer response (eg, clanging of the piston)...and as a last resort, to tune out a buzz/harmonic when direct methods are insufficient.

The better job you can do following this paradigm, the more pure your designed effects will be represented in the target platform.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Yes but tell us how we should configure the unit then?
What's the issue again, or where do you see people talking about this being an issue?

In this very thread I guess. Resonance can be reduced either via dampening when mounted to solid surfaces or via such suspended cantilever installation that acts as a damper.

 

[Mr Latte]

No you lost me again,,,...

Show me examples of how to apply the dampening, in what worked best, how much is sufficient, why does aluminium resonate more/less or differently than steel? Why should we use one or the other material? Show me where or how someone applied a suspended cantilever or why to apply that over other methods?

I can't say I have ever experienced many issues with resonance, that could not be easily remedied, the most were from my seat at @80Hz which was simply cured with DSP using PEQ.

You guys must have awesome tactile with no resonance and it tuned to the max with all this science you can apply.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hardly fancy talk.

But ok....Simple English: If the seat / mount is buzzing or creating harmonic responses fix the buzzing/harmonics directly with damping material, shape, or restraint. DSP should be used to manage the transducer response (eg, clanging of the piston)...and as a last resort, to tune out a buzz/harmonic when direct methods are insufficient.

The better job you can do following this paradigm, the more pure your designed effects will be represented in the target platform.

Show us what you did with your rig to apply these principles and how where you had to apply them.

 

[blekenbleu]

People are welcome to stick bits of wood on their nice cockpits if they want.

I am aware of a metal fetish among sim racers.
My guess is that Drum Throne Mounting bracket is nearer 4 than 6mm thick.
A 5kg mass (ButtKicker) bolted to a 4mm steel plate anchored to a larger mass at the other end of 150mm
might resonate within a ButtKicker's 5-200Hz working range, with a rough estimate of 66Hz.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Show me where or how someone applied a suspended cantilever

 

[Mr Latte]

I am aware of a metal fetish among sim racers.
My guess is that Drum Throne Mounting bracket is nearer 4 than 6mm thick.
A 5kg mass (ButtKicker) bolted to a 4mm steel plate anchored to a larger mass at the other end of 150mm
might resonate within a ButtKicker's 5-200Hz working range, with a rough estimate of 66Hz.

So what if it does, is it a problem, do you see anyone commenting on this being an issue with these products? Yet you refer to it as being "problematic", my question is to who is it problematic?

All this science waffle from you guys, people just want tried tested methods to use and apply to help increase the operation and performance in their tactile.

We can wait for you gentlemen to show people here the fine examples and approaches you came up with based on the wealth of knowledge you clearly demonstrate. The effects you use, how you control the transducers and the isolation/dampening solutions you discovered that worked best or can recommend to others here.

Whos first?

I don't attempt to say I know it all or cannot continue to learn but what I certainly do, is base my recommendations on tested applications and continued usage of the actual products/methods I refer to. So far that seems to be producing good results and I enjoy the experimentation aspect of it.

@Andrew_WOT
LOL, smartass, I expected that but maybe try to answer all the questions raised and just give people stuff they can benefit/learn from.

 

[metalnwood]

At the end of the day, none of our rigs were built and none will be so that they are the ultimate medium for tactile.

If you do, then dump a 80kg piece of meat on top and your calcs are out the window, or if you calculated for that then throw in a 110kg person. Point being, there is just going to be trial and error in some circumstances for some particular issues.

An example, i.e. Andrews plate and the answer being just find the frequency and change the DSP so it doesnt resonate. Why do it with DSP? This isn't my area of expertise, it certainly sounds like others have more expertise than I do here. From what I do remember you may have to lose some power in a frequency range if you use the DSP. In fact you may have to give up power in more than one frequency range. When the simple answer is dampen the material so that it doesnt resonate at the culprit frequency. That doesnt mean that you will lose tactile anywhere.

Andrew could have got his aluminium from a scrap provider and by chance maybe the scrap yard had a piece that was 5mm shorter and 2mm thicker than what he actually got. It probably wouldnt have had that same resonance in the first place because the properties were just a little different, which is all he did to his existing piece, change its properties. I see far less downsides to fixing the resonance on the material itself than doing it with DSP.

You can't say DSP is the better option unless you know his aluminium plate was optimal already. Perhaps his dampened plate is now optimal?

 

[Mr Latte]

At the end of the day, none of our rigs were built and none will be so that they are the ultimate medium for tactile.

If you do, then dump a 80kg piece of meat on top and your calcs are out the window, or if you calculated for that then throw in a 110kg person. Point being, there is just going to be trial and error in some circumstances for some particular issues.

An example, i.e. Andrews plate and the answer being just find the frequency and change the DSP so it doesnt resonate. Why do it with DSP? This isn't my area of expertise, it certainly sounds like others have more expertise than I do here. From what I do remember you may have to lose some power in a frequency range if you use the DSP. In fact you may have to give up power in more than one frequency range. When the simple answer is dampen the material so that it doesnt resonate at the culprit frequency. That doesnt mean that you will lose tactile anywhere.

Andrew could have got his aluminium from a scrap provider and by chance maybe the scrap yard had a piece that was 5mm shorter and 2mm thicker than what he actually got. It probably wouldnt have had that same resonance in the first place because the properties were just a little different, which is all he did to his existing piece, change its properties. I see far less downsides to fixing the resonance on the material itself than doing it with DSP.

You can't say DSP is the better option unless you know his aluminium plate was optimal already. Perhaps his dampened plate is now optimal?

Andrew never once mentioned what frequencies were causing the issue, he never highlighted what frequencies and harmonics his effects were generating never mind resonances. He never stated if he had tried EQ options or DSP (which he often puts down) prior to applying the solution he used.

His application of it, why did he get the notion he had to fully cover the plate? What science did he apply in his own methods when he seems so keen to talk in scientific terms about things?

Now, explain to me how a vibration-reducing substance is fully applied to a material that then magically tones down the frequencies causing ringing, reverberation yet supposedly does not reduce the output of other frequencies? He did not even mention having to crank the volume a bit higher to compensate for any dampening.

Does the dampening not cause any drop in amplitude? Surely it has to be causing some form of reduction, how much I don't know.


Where did I say DSP is the better option?
Or for that matter the only option? However, something we can do with DSP in which you cant do with applying a material is to target the individual frequencies and then lower its amplitude to control how the characteristic output of the transducer you use may be altered.
With a material, my understanding is that it will dampen the output of a wider range of frequencies and giving the user no specific control of how much that reduction is.

In some cases, you may have resonance in a seat for example that you cant apply a material too or the resonance/reverberations could be contained within the object or seat. So being able to control the culprit frequencies causing it with DSP can let the user reduce or remove the issue.

I don't know what Tom is talking about regards problems or drawbacks with DSP and transducers as I have seen nothing but benefits in having it or using it to improve tactile to control multiple units to function better together or to suit the user's rig materials and the users own felt preferences of how frequencies are represented in the felt sensations they generate.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Go get some sleep, stressed out too much already.
Not every thread about tactile is about you and your ( the only right) choices, let other people speak up and share their findings.
High horse attitude with walls of text posts demanding people to do something extraordinary to prove something as if they report to you and attempts to shut down anyone daring to suggest anything deviating from your own vison are just ridiculous.
Seriously chill, live and let live.

 

[metalnwood]

As I said, he could have had a different plate that due to width, depth or thickness might not have had the same ringing he had.

He could have got another random plate and probably not had the issue at all. Does that mean he is missing out on tactile with the new plate because it didnt exhibit that ring? No. I dont see any issue modifying the plate you have to remove the ring instead of using DSP.

So if he found that around 38hz gave the ring, you are suggesting he lower db at 38hz. That will certainly lose power while his dampening material may have no felt effect. I think Tom was saying fix the plate and then use the DSP to even things out rather than the DSP to fix an issue that would have meant there was a drop in output.

I like how in your last post you ask what science was applied and in previous posts you talk about 'science waffle'. So science when you want something from others but just feeling when presenting your own information?

 

[Mr Latte]

As I said, he could have had a different plate that due to width, depth or thickness might not have had the same ringing he had.

He could have got another random plate and probably not had the issue at all. Does that mean he is missing out on tactile with the new plate because it didnt exhibit that ring? No. I dont see any issue modifying the plate you have to remove the ring instead of using DSP.

So if he found that around 38hz gave the ring, you are suggesting he lower db at 38hz. That will certainly lose power while his dampening material may have no felt effect. I think Tom was saying fix the plate and then use the DSP to even things out rather than the DSP to fix an issue that would have meant there was a drop in output.

I like how in your last post you ask what science was applied and in previous posts you talk about 'science waffle'. So science when you want something from others but just feeling when presenting your own information?

If we apply a -6dB drop to a frequency then that's a measurable figure...

So in comparison, you would need to show measurements from tests that highlight either no reduction or what reduction the material used is doing to the vibrational output of the transducers.

Gees man, we apply this stuff to prevent vibrations going into floors etc, so if it reduces vibrations, how does it not also reduce the output when it is applied between the surface of the attached object the vibes are coming from and the rig? Andrew basically gives the impression it had no ill effect whatsoever.

The example of dual BK mini is not the best test case scenario neither as they have a pretty limited output range anyways.

MY point is put to test this application with a more in-depth study.
I dont mind being wrong if thats the case....

 

[Mr Latte]

Go get some sleep, stressed out too much already.
Not every thread about tactile is about you and your ( the only right) choices, let other people speak up and share their findings.
High horse attitude with walls of text posts demanding people to do something extraordinary to prove something as if they report to you and attempts to shut down anyone daring to suggest anything deviating from your own vison are just ridiculous.
Seriously chill, live and let live.

Stressed out, no I just love how you sidestep things when challenged.
Nothing to do with reporting to me, nor do you need to get hostile.

You or anyone else can question and challenge my own methods all you want....

 

[metalnwood]

You put it to test with an in depth study then. If the guy using it is fine, then why even the discussion?

Not sure where -6db came from or how that is even applicable? That is quite a loss, is it your understanding that he will need a 6db boost to overcome what he did to his plate? That doesnt sound right

 

[Mr Latte]

You put it to test with an in depth study then. If the guy using it is fine, then why even the discussion?

Not sure where -6db came from or how that is even applicable? That is quite a loss, is it your understanding that he will need a 6db boost to overcome what he did to his plate? That doesnt sound right

The point is other people may start to use this as an approach fully covering plates for seat/pedals that their tactile is installed onto. You get various brands and types of this stuff, it all may perform differently.

By this example, a vibration/sound deadening reduction-based solution is being applied directly between the BK mounting component and the rig frame. Yet we are told it reduced in no way the quality of the felt vibration. The question I raise is, that is strange and we generally do not improve tactile detail and felt sensations by applying blocking/dampening solutions between the BK and the surface/object we are seeking to vibrate. I question the application of it in how in his example it was applied.

As for the ringing, issue, could other solutions of been used, rubber washers, or indeed only a 1/2" border of the Dynamatt applied to the outer edge? Basically, it appears he went full gung ho with the stuff and I'm not sure that's the best approach to use in how he applied it.

Stop with trying to say things I did not say, I used -6db as a reference of using a measurable controlled method with a DSP solution. Andrew, you or anyone here cannot say for certain that his applied solution is not reducing a wide range of frequencies, causing a potential drop in detailing all in the aid of preventing the noise.

I left questions like should steel, work better than aluminum, as I have generally found steel to be a very good material to use.

 

[metalnwood]

Basically, you are saying you have no real idea the impact it has on his setup but it's not offically approved by you

You gave little to no context what that -6db was about so one could only assume that in context you thought it might be what could be lost for his solution.

Sometimes you have to stop with all this 'I dont want other people to get the idea they can just do what he did.....'. It worked, you want proof, do it yourself.

 

[blekenbleu]

Perhaps his dampened plate is now optimal

No, thicker plywood would be lighter and more rigid, so more nearly optimal.

 

[metalnwood]

No, thicker plywood would be lighter and more rigid, so more nearly optimal.

haha, yes, more optimal I was trying to be relative as well, as in how would we know it wasnt made mode optimal rather than jumping to the conclusion it was less with some material on it.