Options for tactile feedback setup.

[Gargamadua]

Hi, i'm about to embark on my journey into tactile feedback, but I have to be honest and whilst I think I have grasped the basics things are pretty unclear as to what my options are, after watching You tube, reading the posts here and on reddit etc, there's appears to be a huge array of option and a fair amount of conflicting information.

My rig is a self built 8020 profile and pretty damn solid, and my chosen seat (Sparco R333) is quite padded with no real options to mount any exciters directly to it.

A couple of pictures of it for reference:

As far as my options go, I'm more interested in quality than budget, that doesn't mean my budget is unlimited, it more of a case that I'd pay the extra to get the setup right at the outset rather than try and do it at a budget and then end up paying more in the long run due to upgrading.

With the rig being solid I think I have pretty much written off the budget end of the market, I don't think I'd get enough feedback and the money would be better spent towards better kit.

Ultimately my goal is for as realistic feedback as I can within my budget, do i go the whole hog or do I start with a more simple solution and improve it as I become more familiar with tactile in general, I'm not sure at this point and the more I read the more I'm confused. If I had to put a figure on budget I would say £1500 ish is my limit.

I appreciate that I will need to isolate the rig as well as the seat/pedals as well as buy cables and connectors, so I'm not including any costs of these in my budget as they are necessities and ultimately the cost of these will depend on what I end up buying.

To that end I've come up with a few rough ideas but I'm not sure which is the better option.

Option 1. (probably overkill and the most expensive)

4 x Buttkicker advance, one per corner

2 x NX1000D or NX3000D for the 4 x advance

1 x Buttkicker (not sure which) mounted between the 2 seat rails which will be isolated from the rig, plus amp to suit (probably another 1000D)

Option 2. (Similar idea but cheaper)

Pretty much as Option 1 but replacing the 2 x front advance and seat unit with Aurasound AST-2B-4's or similar, and suitable amp, keeping the 2x advance and nx amp for the rear.

Option 3.

2 x Buttkicker Advance, setup for left and right or front and rear 1 x Nx1000D, again not sure which under seat unit & amp

Option 4.

2 x Buttkicker Advance, 1 x Nx1000D setup for left and right or front and rear.

Any comments or suggestions are welcomed, I may be way off with my thinking, I really don't know at this point, I'm guessing that I might be best just starting with a single unit + amp and build from there.

 

[Mr Latte]

I would be surprised that having the whole plate covered as you do has no adverse effect on dampening certain frequencies. It appears, all the frequencies generated by the BK are having to pass through the Dynamatt before entering your rig.

Can you explain from your experiences, trying frequency tests to help determine what frequencies were actually causing the actual "ringing"? Did you then with an EQ attempt to just reduce those frequencies?

As for application, how many variations of applying less and then more did you attempt? From one of your responses, it read like you just slapped on enough to fully cover the plate and well perfect first time, job done. Although it's things like this, I think would make good content on videos showing different tests/experiments.

I believe, you cannot say what frequencies are indeed being affected by that application and I do not believe they advertise such as it probably affects many frequencies to a certain extent as a "noise and vibration" damping solution.

What we generally see in these types of products from various manufacturers is that aluminum/butyl-based products are for (vibration control) not just noise suppression. Low-frequency isolation often relies on springs or uses steel/rubber combos, then butyl-based products, then for higher frequencies, rubber-based layers for sound deadening, and then foams for audible noise reduction.

 

[Mr Latte]

Steel is stronger (and thus can be more compact) and cheaper to stamp out in bulk quantities.
It is also less liable to fatigue from vibration than aluminum.


Most of those would not be considered acoustically active.

People are welcome to stick bits of wood on their nice cockpits if they want.

I do not know of a single sim cockpit building company that attaches BK/Transducers onto their cockpits with wood. Nor any mounts which are sold for transducers that are wood-based.

Just saying what BK themselves use, and what we see companies use to mount transducers.

 

[blekenbleu]

what BK themselves use

At ButtKicker, I found a seemingly problematic Drum Throne Mounting Bracket:

.. but 2 other metal accessory mounts had substantial damping material attached:

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes I am well aware of those...

Old images, on past d.i.y tests


Previous test builds on seat sections...


6x BK / 4x TST on a single seat, been there done that.....


A couch mount needs to be isolated from the floor, the rubber pads are for the sofa feet not to apply vibrating noise. Based on earlier tests like above, I bought 6x BK plates to install 3x BK LFE down each side of my rig (corners and additional central stereo pair).

What is problematic with the Concert Drum Throne Plate?
It actually makes a great way to attach a BK and a TST via the center hole to underneath a seat offering a wider spread of energy than direct mounting.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Drum Throne Mounting bracket does not need dampening as it acts as springed cantilever. Similar principle as sim-lab mounts and BK Gamer2 unit.

 

[Mr Latte]

Drum Throne Mounting bracket does not need dampening as it acts as springed cantilever. Similar principle as sim-lab mounts and BK Gamer2 unit.

I believe the term used is a torque multiplier as it simply uses leverage to increase the amplitude of the generated frequencies.

Dude, I drilled all my BK LFE plates to do the same in offering some form of leverage.

 

[blekenbleu]

What is problematic with the Concert Drum Throne Plate

Another underdamped spring with associated resonance.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Another underdamped spring with associated resonance.

It acts as a springboard killing high frequencies and associated resonance already.

 

[Mr Latte]

Another underdamped spring with associated resonance.

Ahh, so based on what user experience with Siumhub effects did you find such resonance issues?

What frequencies should we use the large BK for to reduce any such problems and why could we not then apply DSP to reduce reverberations/ringing?

 

[Mr Latte]

It acts as a springboard killing high frequencies and associated resonance already.

What High frequencies should we make a large BK try to output?
BK already suck with frequencies over 60Hz

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I believe the term used is a torque multiplier as it simply uses leverage to increase the amplitude of the generated frequencies.

No the term is not "torque multiplier" that's an entirely different thing. Its simply a class 2 lever used to increase the FORCE of the applied frequencies, at the EXPENSE of amplitude. Blekenbleu's arrangement being a class 1 lever.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

could we not then apply DSP to reduce reverberations/ringing

You can, but its really using the wrong tool for the job. Compensating for an undesired resonance in a system by altering the input characteristics will always be a compromise. In many cases the compromise is insignificant, in some cases not. By its very nature the DSP will distort the incoming signal, and the "resonant" response will NOT restore the original character. These things are highly non-linear and non-invertible.

The most ideal system response will always be obtained by a system with the flatest amplitude response in the spectrum desired.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

What High frequencies should we make a large BK try to output?
BK already suck with frequencies over 60Hz

Resonance frequency which is higher than what unit generates.

 

[Mr Latte]

No the term is not "torque multiplier" that's an entirely different thing. Its simply a class 2 lever used to increase the FORCE of the applied frequencies, at the EXPENSE of amplitude. Blekenbleu's arrangement being a class 1 lever.

Interestingly, it is referred to as a "torque amplification bracket" and not a multiplier as I said over at Earthquake for their PB-1 bracket. The concept being that it increases the output of the unit over the unit installed directly to the object.

Here

I own two of these and will on future tests do comparisons with one directly mounted and one using the bracket.

 

[blekenbleu]

based on what user experience with Simhub effects did you find such resonance issues?

Avoiding them was one objective for piezo measurements:

3M wants 72 hours for VHB to fully cure:
View attachment 453845
Thruster body in this configuration may have more effective mass than
the pedal to which it is attached, Peak tactile response sensed by me was around 44Hz.
Unloaded measurements were confounded by brake lever audibly rattling against its stop:

"Thruster" sweeps are from piezo glued to exciter body (above)

"pedal" sweeps are from another piezo glued to brake pedal face:
View attachment 453863
Consequently, those signals would instantaneously be out of phase, and energy at any frequency would be influenced by pedal and exciter mass' resonances with exciter's effective spring force.
As might be expected, the more complex brake pedal exhibits more resonances
than the relatively rigid and dense exciter body.

The most consistent plots were of the exciter piezo with moderate brake load:

My moccasin-clad foot evidently absorbs energy relatively well between 40-50 and 400Hz,
with a significant anti-resonance around 100Hz. Sandwiched between that moccasin and pedal:

.. that brake pedal piezo absorbed relatively little low frequency energy.

In sum, while this exercise may not be particularly definitive about Dayton's thruster,
it clearly suggests that brake pedal tactile energy is most effective around 40Hz, at least for me.

 

[Mr Latte]

Resonance frequency which is higher than what unit generates.

Yes but tell us how we should configure the unit then?
What's the issue again, or where do you see people talking about this being an issue?

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Interestingly, it is referred to as a "torque amplification bracket" and not a multiplier as I said over at Earthquake for their PB-1 bracket. The concept being that it increases the output of the unit over the unit installed directly to the object.

Here

I own two of these and will on future tests do comparisons with one directly mounted and one using the bracket.

That's still a bad usage of the word torque. I can't help the incorrect terminology usage by advertising copy writers. It is not a doing anything with "torque" as the BK doesn't generate any torque...a BK generates a linear force.

A lever does not amplify torque, it amplifies linear force. A class 1 lever has the pivot point between the force and the mass. A class 2 lever has the pivot point on the end.

 

[Mr Latte]

You can, but its really using the wrong tool for the job. Compensating for an undesired resonance in a system by altering the input characteristics will always be a compromise. In many cases the compromise is insignificant, in some cases not. By its very nature the DSP will distort the incoming signal, and the "resonant" response will NOT restore the original character. These things are highly non-linear and non-invertible.

The most ideal system response will always be obtained by a system with the flatest amplitude response in the spectrum desired.

All fancy talk....

So your own findings with tuning tactile and advice is to do what?
It appears we have lots of advice on hardware or plates being offered by people who do not even own the products.

I will certainly try the recommendations put forward.

 

[blekenbleu]

apply DSP to reduce reverberations/ringing

While one can notch out a fundamental resonance,
a resonator can also be excited by (sub)harmonics,
with excited resonances persisting after excitation stops.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Yes but tell us how we should configure the unit then?
What's the issue again, or where do you see people talking about this being an issue?

What Andrew is referring to is called a modal response. Specifically, modes above the 1st mode. 2nd, 3rd and higher order modal responses are multiples of some resonance (1st order modal response).

One should NOT attempt to configure the stimulus (the BK/DSP) to avoid these modal responses. Instead, the base platform should be designed to DAMP the amplitude of these modes by design.