Opinions on R3E: What's yours?

[Nigel Mansell]

This is fine for ppl happy to dry-lap. RRE has improved over time - but I'm in the, "this is an outdated platform now" club. Best way to vent my frustration = stop buying DLC. When S3 care enough to drag RRE into modern times, I'll restart support. I buy the DLC, yet hardly lap with it - makes zero sense. I'm fed up of dry lapping. it's a personal thing.

We had rain in sims many years ago, then it all went tits-up IMHO. YMMV of course, that's fine. Why were Microprose ahead of their time. How long have I supported this stale engine for now, jeez. I've been doing this for a great many number of years - too long (dry-lapping) tbh. Hence the frustration. Approaching my mid 50's, I'm going to be more selective about who I give my savings to. Free to play software isn't the future. Otherwise S3 would have taken RRE to a modern place already. RRE, feels like a pay-to-improve model to me. By that I mean, RRE just releases tweaks here and there, but the fundamental tech is missing. We own this sim software, but at a UK track, we can't create a cold/overcast/low grip/wet or even damp scenario.

Fair play to Kunos for gambling, and having the passion/balls enough to deliver what some of us long for. By that I mean, driving at differing times of the day, in low grip situations. I get that we all don't see this as the "be all" of simracing. We all have opinions about SMS. At least they could be bothered to create time of day/weather, and moved the genre along. S3 is holding back the only genre I purchase games from. I'm unhappy about this lol. RRE started to feel stale, years ago. Much like how people feel that Codemasters have stunted the growth of the F1 platform, in the many years they've had the licence. Like a huge number of you, I've sunk huge amounts into regularly supporting S3. I hope one day, that a scenario arrives where I look forward to booting the platform and using the content I've purchased.

I know SimBin UK supposedly works on a modern game engine, supporting time of day/weather. Both platforms will likely share the tech. For me, it long overdue. Sorry S3, this is the only genre I enjoy. You starved your own engine of the features I've wanted most for years. It can't get any more broken than it is. You'll get nothing more now, until you care enough to update your engine tech.

 

[avenger82]

The new tire model and physics that Neil has been working on with the Cup car and the GT1/GT2 cars is probably my favorite at the moment.

I thought Alex was working on Porsche Cup car physics. Also there's new tire model? AFAIK it's still based on rF1 pacejka model. Perhaps there was incremental update?

 

[Lars Hansen]

Oddly enough, I'm in the exact opposite camp of the OP; R3E is the only sim I play, despite owning just about all of them.

Are there features missing? Yes.
There's always something missing no matter what sim you currently favor.
But honestly, neither rain nor day/night transitions are particularly high on my wishlist.
Don't think I've ever used them in the sims that actually had them (Well, maybe GTR2).

Nor do I mind the DLC policy.
Sure, some sort of loyalty bonus would be nice, but on the other hand, if throwing 10 euros at S3 every other month is what enables the team to stay working on improvements, I'd say that's money well spent.
Far better than e.g. launching a new game every year without any real progress (looking at you Codies), or releasing one game only slightly buggier than the last one at release (Yeah, and you too SMS).

For me, R3E offers a staggering amount of car/track combos.
Sure, it doesn't have the latest graphical bells and whistles, but so what?
If you've got time to admire the landscaping, you ain't racing.
Add to that what is IMO the best sound in the business (though ACC is nipping at the proverbial heels).
And perhaps most importantly, seeing as I'm mainly a single-player guy, the best AI on the market, bar none.
Yes, there are some hiccups on certain tracks (Salzburgring springs to mind), but on the whole of it, no other sim I've ever played comes even close to delivering the intensity that R3E AI can bring.

And yeah, I'm a fan-boy.
Quite unapologetic about it as well.

 

[Case_]

@Bob Laycock Fair enough. I was genuinely just curious. Because personally I can't recall a single time in the two and a half years and almost 1000 hours spent with Raceroom that I would've wanted to play Raceroom and couldn't because of the ISP being down. I've had various issues that prevented me from playing a few times, but they were not due to the ISP, so from my perspective, if your ISP would be down so often that it would become an issue, the problem would first and foremost be...a pretty lousy ISP

 

[UMC 22]

f your ISP would be down so often that it would become an issue, the problem would first and foremost be...a pretty lousy ISP

Or very poor infrastructure, which an ISP can't do much about in a country like the UK where a separate monopoly controls all that.

Oddly enough, I'm in the exact opposite camp of the OP; R3E is the only sim I play, despite owning just about all of them.

I was wondering if I was the only one that loves R3E "as is", but you've said pretty much word for word what I think in general. It definitely has it's flaws and missing features like every other sim, racing or otherwise, but on balance it has a lot to offer.

On content alone it can't really be matched by any other current sim, yet somehow that seems to be ignored in this type of discussion. Given that I have the same view on weather and day/night cycles, I don't really understand this apparent obsession with a game engine upgrade either. And those that follow the dev diaries will know that there's a whole host of missing and requested features currently in the works, so in a few months time it seems there will barely be anything left to complain about.

Who am I kidding... the internet will always find things to complain about!

 

[Spinelli]

[delete]

 

[Spinelli]

@Spinelli...but your other rather superficial namedropping-ish (EAX5.0 and A3D) does refer to now abandoned sound formats that is incompatible with modern Windows(= post XP).

I was never implying to try and resurrect A3D or EAX5.0 ...I was simply using them as an example because of some of the technical stuff they're capable of.

I'm torn on RaceRoom. The new tire model and physics that Neil has been working on with the Cup car and the GT1/GT2 cars is probably my favorite at the moment.

New tyre model for the Cup and GT1/GT2 cars? Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure R3E, like almost every other sim has only 1 tyre model (maybe besides iRacing when they're in the process of updating to a new tyre model)...

Do you just mean they've been working with the values in the current tyre model to try and improve the Cup & GT1/GT2 cars (this is much, much more common to do) or do you mean the Cup & GT1/GT2 cars are literally running on a different, 2nd core tyre model (ie. tyre physics engine)?

@Spinelli good call on the tyre behaviour comments, that is something we've specifically been looking at and hope to roll out some improvements in that department over the coming months. We've seen some specific aspects which cause issues with grip linearity as well as making improvements to certain over-simplifications.

Thanks Alex. And thanks for your open-mindedness and humbleness regarding what can often be a sensitive topic.

In my personal opinion, I don't think it's purely only based on the core tyre model. I can't prove this with hard data because I wouldn't even know where to start or how to do it using all sorts of physics extrapolation & telemetry and such but my evidence is Project Cars. PC1 and even PC2 have apparently completely scratch made tyre models - not an evolution or a "re-write" of the ISI one but apparently completely separately scratch made - yet they both still exhibit it a lot of this stuff (although PC2 has improved a little). In fact, I've even seen some of it in the AMS2 preview videos (PC2 physics engine). Those are evidence to me that it's not just part of the core ISI/RF tyre model but also something else in other areas of the physics engine. If the tyre model is truly completely different/separately scratch made in PC then the physics engine outside the tyre model, in my opinion, is the only remaining candidate. If I had to guess - along with the tyre model as you alluded to - something maybe to do with forces connected to mass/inertia in conjunction with the vehicle's mass swinging around and also changing direction (eg. when rear rotates outwards during oversteer, when rear rotates back in line as oversteer decreases). There often seems to be a lack of mass/inertia along with an overbearing sense of everything (car forces) being "driven" from, and acting on, the vehicle's front-end. It's sometimes like the front-end is actually dictating the oversteer and turning the car more and more like there's some strange lateral force on the tip of the car's front end (or front tyres) rather than the rear of the vehicle rotating relative to the car's front and it's path of travel.

There could also possibly be something with the internal combustion (I.C.E.) modelling as it sometimes seems like the instant grip is lost that there's a big & sudden spike of almost uncontrollable (very on/off) engine torque even with relatively small amounts of throttle (but it's also possible that could be down to the tyre model, not the I.C.E. model).

I know this is a sensitive topic for both fans and devs alike. I would be more than happy to speak in PM if you like. I have lots of descriptions, game replays (mostly of AMS & RF2), real life videos and such aiding in describing and presenting this. If not, then don't mind me and keep up the great work & improvements...and please don't forget about GTR3

 

[BrunoBæ]

It's sometimes like the front-end is actually dictating the oversteer and turning the car more and more like there's some strange lateral force on the tip of the car's front end (or front tyres) rather than the rear of the vehicle rotating relative to the car's front and it's path of travel.

At least this part of your outpourings I can more or less agree on.
But its not only Raceroom that has this issue.
Its more or less all the racing games (that I know of).
Years back I described this in the iRacing forum where I refered to the same behaviour in both iRacing and its "forerunner" NR2003(GTP mod) where the feeling was in an oversteering situ that instead of the rear sliding out then it was felt (and looked in cockpit) liked the front slided in instead!
My own explanation of the fact that this general issue is seldom discussed (almost never) is that when it happens and you as example save a replay then the replay seen from the outside looks ok.
It looks like the rear goes away as it should in an oversteer situ - and not like the front instead "slides" into the corner instead.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: When I say "all racing games" (that I know of) then rF2 is the only game where this issue is not so pronounced as most of the competition.

 

[Emery]

My general feeling is similar to the OP, but for different reasons.

R3E has an excellent selection of tracks and content, yet the content I want is barely represented. There is a heavy German-centric bias, just like AMS has a heavy Brazilian-centric bias, and as an American, it can be difficult to identify with a lot of the content. Dare I reveal that PCARS2 has actually met my content desires better than anything else?

Frequent updates are good, but, especially with new content releases, my monthly allotment of downloads is strained because the platform requires all the content to be downloaded.

They've done well with squeezing a lot into 32-bit address space, but that's a constraint Sector 3 no longer needs when developing content and they'll be the last sim to move to 64-bit. Lack of day/night cycle, weather, etc. are also constraints they don't need.

All these things led me to stop playing R3E last year and its been an even longer period since I bought any content.

 

[UMC 22]

They've done well with squeezing a lot into 32-bit address space, but that's a constraint Sector 3 no longer needs when developing content and they'll be the last sim to move to 64-bit.

R3E shifted to 64bit rather a long time ago.

 

[Emery]

R3E shifted to 64bit rather a long time ago.

Good on them! Now how did I miss that?!?

 

[UMC 22]

Good on them! Now how did I miss that?!?

To be honest, I don't think it was something they made a big fanfare about. It just kinda happened in a patch or two, first as an option and then by default. The game can still be started in 32bit mode though I'm not sure why anyone would want to.

 

[Kurupt CDN]

Great game with great content but the lack of track tech compared to the competition has me playing other titles.
Hopefully a switch to a new engine will help breath some new life into the game and add some new features.

IMO Raceroom was not an evolution of Race 07 which I was really hoping for and actually a step backwards.

No weather, day to night transition, multiple tire compounds or those lovely windscreen effects of tire rubber whacking the window and bug/oil splats

I would have loved to seen them remaster the Race 07 engine similar to what Reiza did with AMS.

All they would have had to do is add track rubbering, tweak the tire model and update the sound engine.

 

[BrunoBæ]

...but the lack of track tech compared to the competition has me playing other titles.

Just out of curiosity what do you mean with "track tech"?
Do you mean something like your "track rubbering, tweak the tire model" - or what?

 

[UMC 22]

IMO Raceroom was not an evolution of Race 07 which I was really hoping for and actually a step backwards.

To be fair, it was never meant to be an evolution of that great sim or a sequel. From what I gather, originally it was supposed to be some kind of online-only eventing software. It was only long after development started that it switched to becoming an actual retail sim for general consumption. Lots of the missing tech and features which are still being overcome years later are due to those initial decisions and resulting limitations.

As much as I like R3E, I'd actually love S3 to get the opportunity to make a whole new sim from scratch. If they had the freedom to make all the right decisions from day one, I think they could come up with a truly amazing sim given what they've already achieved here.

Just out of curiosity what do you mean with "track tech"?

Yeah you got it, things like track evolution (rubbering), proper natural build up of off-line marbles, etc.

 

[Will Mazeo]

As much as I like R3E, I'd actually love S3 to get the opportunity to make a whole new sim from scratch. If they had the freedom to make all the right decisions from day one, I think they could come up with a truly amazing sim given what they've already achieved here.

This. If they had taken some Automobilista route from day 1 imagine where they'd be now.
Sometimes it looks like ppl ahead of these projects dont really plan anything, all sims have some very stupid decisions in early days

 

[Gevatter]

Honestly, the only thing that really bothers me is the inconsistency in regards to vehicle physics, where older cars use an older physics model. That's not even specificly an issue of R3E, it is the same in PC2 and in rF2. S3 are slowly updating the old stock, so I guess it'll be a question of time in the end. Any update of the DTM Classics update btw? I have a few other niggles like that there is no way to have manual clutch on sequential shifter cars (unless that got patched recently) or that there are a few non licenced cars for sale, but those I just avoid if I don't like them.

All the other points of contention are not really an issue for me. Sure the graphics could be better, and I like good looking sims, but it doesn't detract from anything. I started playing GT Legend again last week and have a lot of fun, and even with the 10AP patch it looks every one of its eleven years. Sound ist still the best right behind ACC imo, and ACC only has to model sounds for one car class. Content variation is great, there are a lot of tracks that are in no other sim. It's one of only two sims I play that recognizes my Accuforce with working softlock. I personally don't need night and rain and while they are great and bring some atmosphere, I hardly use them in any sim that has them.

 

[UMC 22]

Any update of the DTM Classics update btw?

I think maybe you're getting two similar classes mixed up there. S3 are currently working on an update to the DTM `92s as we speak, and given that the Touring Classics are very similar I would think that perhaps they are being done at the same time.

there is no way to have manual clutch on sequential shifter cars (unless that got patched recently)

I may be wrong (because I haven't tried it) but you have the option of selecting your gearing and clutch combo on the pit menu now. It may allow you to use the clutch in sequential cars but I'd have to check to confirm.

 

[Gevatter]

I think maybe you're getting two similar classes mixed up there. S3 are currently working on an update to the DTM `92s as we speak, and given that the Touring Classics are very similar I would think that perhaps they are being done at the same time.

My last information was that they do the DTM '92 and the Touring Classics at the same time, but yes I butchered the names

I may be wrong (because I haven't tried it) but you have the option of selecting your gearing and clutch combo on the pit menu now. It may allow you to use the clutch in sequential cars but I'd have to check to confirm.

If it hasn't been changed recently you can go full manual on cars with H-pattern gearboxes but sequential shifter cars only allow for auto-clutch.

 

[MrYubby]

One of my greatest disappointments with R3E is how graphical content is locked down, unlike the Race07 series. The ability to create custom skins to allow me to simulate venues and liveries not included with the original titles was one of my greatest joys with GTR, GTR2, Rfactor, and Race07 series (all based on Gmotor engine). I understand the potential legal issues and the technical issues of integrating custom content into an online racing game. However, for the single-player experience, it would still be a lot of fun to create custom skins, particularly for the F1 1990 pack, that would be epic.

 

[F_B]

+ car packs / whole series
+ rare tracks
+ AI (not perfect but better than in many other titles)
+ custom grids

– dx9 (VR user here, performance would be much better with DX11)
– no dynamic track
– no structured multiplayer
– no custom skins
– some cars still on old physics but that will probably change soon

I recently discovered R3E again since they added excellent content to the title (Group C, FR90, Porsche Cup, Dubai, Bilsterberg…) which I enjoy. I hope they make the switch to DX11 and/or a new engine some day. Contentwise I have nothing to complain about.