Not feeling lockups at all - something potentially wrong with the FFB

[Coffer]

Ever since I bought the game a long time ago, one of my biggest issues with it has been that, while the FFB seemingly works just fine most of the time (though it is rather strong), there is absolutely no difference in the way the wheel feels when locking up. Am I missing something? I've heard some people say that the only thing I should be feeling is the wheel lightening a bit, but even that doesn't happen - the only way I can tell if I've locked up at all is through audio cues.

Has anyone else experienced this, and if so, is there any way to fix this or at least check if there is any clipping going on or anything else? I asked around a while ago and nobody seemed to figure out what could be causing it either. Wheel's a G27 and the settings in and out of the game are exactly as they should be. The issue doesn't happen in any other game.

 

[PicoBp]

What do you have Low Force Boost on? Maybe you're over-amplifying the low forces and there's not enough difference between a light and a planted car. Also your overall FFB and profiler settings?

I never had an issue using a G27 with AMS, even though I moved over to TM wheels since.

 

[Coffer]

What do you have Low Force Boost on? Maybe you're over-amplifying the low forces and there's not enough difference between a light and a planted car. Also your overall FFB and profiler settings?

I never had an issue using a G27 with AMS, even though I moved over to TM wheels since.

I bumped it up to something like 80% to test out whether this was causing the lack of feeling, but it made no discernible difference.

The profiler settings are the same ones often posted just about anywhere on here - I'd post a screencap but I'm at work right now. As for the in-game FFB, I left everything as it originally was (besides the low force boost which I used to test things out) - another friend did the same and he has no such issues.

I've seen several posts elsewhere noting that they got their FFB to feel not too dissimilar to AC's. So far I'm nowhere near that, as generally AMS's is several magnitudes stronger.

A better (probably TM) wheel is my eventual target in the coming years, but seeing as a T300 over here would cost close to (or even more than, with another addon) my entire current monthly salary, that's hardly feasible right now.

 

[Marc Collins]

Ever since I bought the game a long time ago, one of my biggest issues with it has been that, while the FFB seemingly works just fine most of the time (though it is rather strong), there is absolutely no difference in the way the wheel feels when locking up. Am I missing something? I've heard some people say that the only thing I should be feeling is the wheel lightening a bit, but even that doesn't happen - the only way I can tell if I've locked up at all is through audio cues.

Has anyone else experienced this, and if so, is there any way to fix this or at least check if there is any clipping going on or anything else? I asked around a while ago and nobody seemed to figure out what could be causing it either. Wheel's a G27 and the settings in and out of the game are exactly as they should be. The issue doesn't happen in any other game.

There are other posts about this, too. Reading those may help. All I know is that the problem is at your end (configuration), because the FFB in AMS is excellent, including the ability to feel lockups.

There are setting in Realfeel.ini that affect this, but if you have left everything at default, then it will be a wheel-related setting. I would revert everything in AMS back to default (because the Reiza people know what they are doing and pay close attention to FFB effects) if it not already and then ensure the FFB settings are cranked up (assuming your PC can handle it...you do have good FPS overall, right?) to Pure.

If it still doesn't feel good, it's a damping setting somewhere that is masking the FFB.

P.S., put Low Force Boost back to whatever the recommended level is for Logitech (15%?) and leave it alone.

 

[Coffer]

There are other posts about this, too. Reading those may help. All I now is that the problem is at your end (configuration), because the FFB in AMS is excellent, including the ability to feel lockups.

I read many of the other posts on this topic that I've seen on other sites. None helped, hence the post.

I would revert everything in AMS back to default (because the Reiza people know what they are doing and pay close attention to FFB effects)

Did the latest patch not do exactly that? A friend told me just yesterday that he had to re-append the HistorX realfeel settings to the file because it got reset to the default, so I'm pretty sure that's how it is right now.

and then ensure the FFB settings are cranked up to Pure.

Fairly sure they already are.

(assuming your PC can handle it...you do have good FPS overall, right?)

Yeah, constantly over 100. It would be a lot better if it wasn't a 32-bit application, since at the moment AC does run considerably better at a near-consistent 144, but it's very good besides that.

If it still doesn't feel good, it's a damping setting somewhere that is masking the FFB.

Nothing of the sort in the profiler at least.

P.S., put Low Force Boost back to whatever the recommended level is for Logitech (15%?) and leave it alone.

Did just that yesterday. No dice.

 

[PicoBp]

Few more questions, maybe we can find some clue:

- What car(s) do you experience this with?
- Do you use the 'enhanced understeer effect' in AC?
- How firm is your grip on the wheel? G27 is pretty weak, you can easily mask minosr FFB changes just by holding on too tight.
- Is this 'lack of lock-up' only in straight line? Do you feel the same when you loose traction in turns?

 

[Coffer]

Thanks for the help.

- What car(s) do you experience this with?

Most of the default ones. It's generally worse in the F1 cars, but not by much since it's very noticeable in the modern stock cars as well. It's been a while since I tested, but I think the Opalas were especially better in that sense the last time I did them, as were the HistorX cars with the realfeel settings here on RD.

- Do you use the 'enhanced understeer effect' in AC?

Far as I know, no, though I'll admit that I haven't actually checked it since I haven't changed almost anything at all in AC. Is it on or off by default? I would imagine that if it's on, it might contribute to the reason I'm having a harder time here.

- How firm is your grip on the wheel? G27 is pretty weak, you can easily mask minosr FFB changes just by holding on too tight.

I'll admit, this might be an issue - I have extremely poor strength and I lost some of that in an accident a few years back, so I am pretty rough with the grip. More than once I hurt myself trying to hold on but not being able to, and my steering inputs do tend to be a bit more violent than normal according to a couple of my friends. Generally this is not an issue in AC (drifting is one of those cases where it is), but it absolutely is an issue in AMS where it feels like the FFB is very strong a lot of the time, particularly at high speeds. Won't deny that this might be an issue on my end though.

- Is this 'lack of lock-up' only in straight line? Do you feel the same when you loose traction in turns?

Yeah, the straighter I am, the worse it gets, but I don't have to be completely straight. In some corners it feels extremely hard to brake at all right now, the hairpin at Suzuka in F1 cars being one such example regardless of my line or my speed.

I just found another very recent thread I missed the last time that links to a Reiza thread that briefly talks about a few potentially relevant things, which I'll try tonight after getting back from work. I think I saw you post there.

The traction is largely fine. It's not the same as in AC, but it's close and it's definitely a lot more manageable. Maybe 90% optimal compared to AC's 99%ish in terms of how much I can handle it. In general, front grip is a much bigger issue than rear grip, but lockups on both sides are causing me problems at the moment.

 

[PicoBp]

Based on your input, it might be a combination of things then. I admit that in higher downforce cars the FFB might clip with the default settings. I'm working on optimized RealFeel values for stock content to minimize the default clipping overhead they deliberately left there (mainly for weaker/more damped wheels). Once I'm done I can share that here. The wheel will feel lighter, but with more detail, especially in high load/high downforce handling, and you can add some Low Force Boost to weighten up the low end if needed.

For your grip, I can only advise to shake your hands down every now end then, wiggle your fingers a bit, just to break up tension. It happens to me as well, mainly in the heat of battle or driving on the limit. You might also want to try and lower your FFB in-game to around 80%. I have yet to investigate if that acts as a multiplier or a limiter, if it's the former, it will counter the clipping as well, but if the latter, it will just give you something lighter to handle. I'll come back to you when I can confirm this.

In the meantime, you can try and manually edit the realfeel values and multiply the MaxForceAtSteeringRack values (starting with a single car at first) by x1.3 as a rough, generic estimate, and see if that ends up in a better feel for you. Just make sure that you should do that while the game is not running.

 

[Coffer]

Based on your input, it might be a combination of things then. I admit that in higher downforce cars the FFB might clip with the default settings. I'm working on optimized RealFeel values for stock content to minimize the default clipping overhead they deliberately left there (mainly for weaker/more damped wheels). Once I'm done I can share that here. The wheel will feel lighter, but with more detail, especially in high load/high downforce handling, and you can add some Low Force Boost to weighten up the low end if needed.

Sounds good. Looking forward to that.

For your grip, I can only advise to shake your hands down every now end then, wiggle your fingers a bit, just to break up tension. It happens to me as well, mainly in the heat of battle or driving on the limit.

At least it's not only me then. I'll keep that in mind.

You might also want to try and lower your FFB in-game to around 80%. I have yet to investigate if that acts as a multiplier or a limiter, if it's the former, it will counter the clipping as well, but if the latter, it will just give you something lighter to handle. I'll come back to you when I can confirm this.

Yeah I brought it down to 90% on a whim last night and had a slightly better time, so this might indeed be helpful. I'll bring it down further again tonight and see how that goes.

In the meantime, you can try and manually edit the realfeel values and multiply the MaxForceAtSteeringRack values (starting with a single car at first) by x1.3 as a rough, generic estimate, and see if that ends up in a better feel for you. Just make sure that you should do that while the game is not running.

Will do, thanks. I'll update once I get the chance to test things out again, which should be tonight.

 

[Coffer]

In the meantime, you can try and manually edit the realfeel values and multiply the MaxForceAtSteeringRack values (starting with a single car at first) by x1.3 as a rough, generic estimate, and see if that ends up in a better feel for you. Just make sure that you should do that while the game is not running.

Will do, thanks. I'll update once I get the chance to test things out again, which should be tonight.

Only just had the chance to do that test and no dice - with the FFB at 80%, low force boost at 40% and the MaxForceAtSteeringRack value for the BR stock cars (by far the worst cars in the game for me at the moment) at 1.3x its original value, they felt even worse, as the wheel was much too light even outside of braking zones. I literally alternated 3 consecutive times in the same corner between braking hard (to force a lockup) and taking my foot off the brakes (to end the lockup) and there was zero difference in the way the wheel felt. No mods used since I tested at Cordoba.

Also tried the FFB at 100% and the LFBoost at 80% (80-40, 80-80 and 100-80 were my tests) - absolutely no difference under braking, almost like the level of front grip never changes at all no matter what I do.

 

[PicoBp]

Only just had the chance to do that test and no dice - with the FFB at 80%, low force boost at 40% and the MaxForceAtSteeringRack value for the BR stock cars (by far the worst cars in the game for me at the moment) at 1.3x its original value, they felt even worse, as the wheel was much too light even outside of braking zones. I literally alternated 3 consecutive times in the same corner between braking hard (to force a lockup) and taking my foot off the brakes (to end the lockup) and there was zero difference in the way the wheel felt. No mods used since I tested at Cordoba.

Also tried the FFB at 100% and the LFBoost at 80% (80-40, 80-80 and 100-80 were my tests) - absolutely no difference under braking, almost like the level of front grip never changes at all no matter what I do.

Why so much low force boost? I have it at 4% and it feels solid.

 

[Stephen O'Sullivan]

EDIT: My info is out of date. Please ignore.

Have you tried changing the value of the Front Grip effect in RealFeelPlugin.ini? Automobilista's default is 0.2:

DefaultFrontGripEffect=0.200000

The higher the value, the quicker the FFB drop-off. 1.0 = maximum grip, 0.0 = no grip.

Try increments from 0.10000 to 0.2 and then upwards and see if the feeling of lock-up is affected. Don't forget to back up your RealFeel file first.

P.S. The next Reiza update will probably make the value revert to the default.

 

[CMGARAGE]

Why so much low force boost? I have it at 4% and it feels solid.

Renato suggests 80% Low force boost for Logitech wheels.

http://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/automobilista-how-the-ffb-works-and-what-is-new-about-it.45/

Wdit: Original post was by Niels, then copied over by Renato.

 

[Coffer]

Have you tried changing the value of the Front Grip effect in RealFeelPlugin.ini? Automobilista's default is 0.2:

DefaultFrontGripEffect=0.200000

The higher the value, the quicker the FFB drop-off. 1.0 = maximum grip, 0.0 = no grip.

Try increments from 0.10000 to 0.2 and then upwards and see if the feeling of lock-up is affected. Don't forget to back up your RealFeel file first.

P.S. The next Reiza update will probably make the value revert to the default.

Is it really 0.2? I looked in the file earlier as I was quite suspicious of the default value I noticed while changing that other value - it's at 0.0 for me. Unfortunately, for a friend of mine it's also at 0.0 and he says he can feel things just fine, and even after bumping both the default one and the one for the stock cars at 0.4 (as recommended in a thread on the official Reiza forums) there was no noticeable difference.

Why so much low force boost? I have it at 4% and it feels solid.

As CMGARAGE said, it's been recommended for Logitech wheels. I tried testing with higher and lower values, including going as low as you did, and didn't notice any changes where it really matters at the moment.

 

[Marc Collins]

Is it really 0.2? I looked in the file earlier as I was quite suspicious of the default value I noticed while changing that other value - it's at 0.0 for me. Unfortunately, for a friend of mine it's also at 0.0 and he says he can feel things just fine, and even after bumping both the default one and the one for the stock cars at 0.4 (as recommended in a thread on the official Reiza forums) there was no noticeable difference.


As CMGARAGE said, it's been recommended for Logitech wheels. I tried testing with higher and lower values, including going as low as you did, and didn't notice any changes where it really matters at the moment.

The old 0.2 was removed a long while back. It's all to be left at default now.

 

[CMGARAGE]

Had a quick thrash in the Stockcar Brasil.

Silly question, but are you sure you're locking up? Ran the Stockcar straight at the garage with brakes defaulted to 90%(?) and was struggling to lock up at all. Switched it up to 100 pressure and it locks and flatspots. I don't think it's the best car to measure the effects of locking up though.

I switched to the Boxer Cup, turned ABS off (default is low) and set pressure to 100%. The car locks up a lot easier and I can certainly feel the difference between the handling. If you can't tell the difference in that car then something has to have been lost in translation somewhere.

I've never been in a position in AMS where I've felt the game hasn't sufficiently communicated locking up to me.

 

[Stephen O'Sullivan]

The old 0.2 was removed a long while back. It's all to be left at default now.

Ah, sorry. I took the info from a post in the Reiza forum and was unaware it was out of date.

 

[Marc Collins]

Ah, sorry. I took the info from a post in the Reiza forum and was unaware it was out of date.

But you can still adjust the Realfeel FFB Strength (using the shortcut keys while on track). But there should be no need for anyone to manually edit that file any longer. But do back it up because whatever changes you make get wiped every time there is a major update.

 

[Coffer]

Silly question, but are you sure you're locking up?

Obviously. I can both hear the screeching and see the tyre smoke in the mirrors, especially when I'm intentionally testing for it like I was earlier. I just can't feel anything physically. Flatspots are completely fine, it's the actual lockups and any sort of loss of front grip in general while cornering that I can't feel.

It's not like I'm locking up all the time or anything like that, but the inability to feel lockups is the biggest of the problems relating to front grip that I'm seeing right now, along with having zero confidence on corner entry due to not being able to distinguish when I can be more aggressive with my inputs. As a matter of fact, rear lockups, on the rare occasions when they do happen, are completely fine.

 

[Spinelli]

I agree. T500RS, T300RS/TX, CSW V2, OSW...Front lock-up and overall front-grip feel could definitely be improved in my opinion - generally speaking (definitely better with karts). I don't really have a huge problem because I get used to it and can drive by sound and eyes but it definitely makes me a lot less "lazer precise and consistent" when really trying to brake and go through corners on the limit. My personal braking, turn-in, and mid-corner limits are lower than what they could be with a more "in your face" grip-style-FFB. It's like FFB is more tuned for smoothness, weight transfer, and springiness (return to centre) rather than based on tyre grip. In real life, I can feel steering wheels communicating how far past the "bite point" (increasing understeer) and how close I am to the re-bite point (decreasing understeer). You also get this sensation of the tyre sort of wanting to grab the asphalt, like it has claws or actual bite but things in ISI motor during slip angles have always had a sort of "mushy" and dare-I-say "sloppy" characteristic (as if tyres love sliding rather than the scrubbing and biting/grabbing of real life and some other sims).

I think part of it is down to the physics engine. Even rFactor 2 with an apparently much different tyre model has this behavior although it's not as bad in terms of feel but definitely still there in terms of actual driving characteristics of the tyre.

Try what others said. Play with the frontgripeffect (however, it unfortunately drops force too early into the slip angle but we can't adjust that).

I noticed a weird phenomena with my OSW with some older settings. When I enabled Friction in the wheel's FFB control panel (MMos), I got a bit of that tyre skipping and biting sensation when on the limit. It only worked when Friction was enabled (and enabled in MMos - now that OSW users enable Friction from another program, I don't get that sensation anymore ). So try adding small amounts of friction and see if it helps.

You can always enable the old-style FFB and tune it for a much more "informative tyre-grip" FFB but that can be a pain. I'm too lazy for that now and don't care any more about every last tenth of a second to drive me crazy inro looking for a super-informative FFB...but I completely understand how you're feeling