Motion system with 10000$ budget

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).
 
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Talking about the G-Belt: The universal mounting option they have at simexperience looks likes goes attached under the seat and would pull the belt vertically.

Isnt it better to have it pull horizontally?.Any one without the G-Seat has it mounted so it pulls horizontally?
 
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Isnt it better to have it pull horizontally?
Yes, but:
  • mounting G-Belt lower increases distance between a noise source and your ears
  • racing seat shoulder harness port lower edges should redirect harness tension from vertical to horizontal
    • unless shoulders are too high in the seat
    • or not using a racing seat
  • Some use rollers at shoulder height to redirect tensions, e.g.:
  • In the SimHub discord #experimental-belt-tensionner-discussions channel,
    @Robby has 3D-printed pulley assemblies that clamp into racing seat shoulder harness ports:
    IMG_20210806_100127.jpg
 
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Yes, but:
  • mounting G-Belt lower increases distance between a noise source and your ears
  • racing seat shoulder harness port lower edges should redirect harness tension from vertical to horizontal
    • unless shoulders are too high in the seat
    • or not using a racing seat
  • Some use rollers at shoulder height to redirect tensions, e.g.:
Didnt think about the noise.Good point.

Ill have a look at the rollers

Thanks¡
 
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I would not try to use motion to simulate the road slope and stuff like that. That's why i think the 38mm travel of the D-Box would still be fine even though I was previously using the 100mm travel of the SFX-100. For chassis and suspension movement and also reactions to very common things like curbs and pavement irregularities you do not need anything close to 100mm. Motion is very much best suited to trying to replicate as little as possible, but very well. The more you try to replicate from the real world, the less authentic the feel will be. That's my opinion.

Also, the noise of the G-Belt is not something I thought about UNTIL I started using speakers and not the earbuds I've been using for ages. With the earbuds in I didn't even notice that there was noise, but now, you can definitely be irritated by it especially since it's right up behind my ears. I've since added two more speakers actually mounted to the side of the G-Belt itself, but I'm yet to test them out as I have not had it running in some time. Will need to do that.
 
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Why is that?.
Just wanted to try something different. I had a spare 5.1 system that had the amp die. So I was left with the sub and the speakers from it, which were perfect to mount onto the chassis with little brackets. I still have the earbuds connected for when I need them but since moving from VR and not having to be tethered with a cable any longer I wanted to try remove the earbud wire as well. Much cleaner. Not ideal when you're using voice chat but for lapping alone or even in race when I tend to not talk at all unless absolutely necessary, it's fine.
 
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Back to the P1-X haha.Have seen some TR160 buiding videos and there are some complains with little details and missing parts.

Also i might decide to go for SFX100/150 insteal of PT-Actuators, cheaper and the e-labs MEGA does not look bad at all.
I was very close to order some PT actuators and decided to go with Eracing. They are a few days from arriving so I cant give any feedback yet. But from what I've read, customer service has been good for everyone. Initially I thought I had to assemble the actuators which is why I wasn't interested. After I realized the required assembly was minimal, I couldn't see myself pay so much more for pt. Essentially the same specs. (The pt 150mm move at 500mm/s instead of 250 but cost $6500...) Somebody mentioned than Pt are push pull and not sfx100.. I believe Eracing version is push pull capable... and from what I gathered, it doesn't seem very important anyways... The only difference may be the build quality and 3 yr warranty instead of 1.... Not worth an extra 1500-1700 usd in my opinion...
 
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I was very close to order some PT actuators and decided to go with Eracing. They are a few days from arriving so I cant give any feedback yet. But from what I've read, customer service has been good for everyone. Initially I thought I had to assemble the actuators which is why I wasn't interested. After I realized the required assembly was minimal, I couldn't see myself pay so much more for pt. Essentially the same specs. (The pt 150mm move at 500mm/s instead of 250 but cost $6500...) Somebody mentioned than Pt are push pull and not sfx100.. I believe Eracing version is push pull capable... and from what I gathered, it doesn't seem very important anyways... The only difference may be the build quality and 3 yr warranty instead of 1.... Not worth an extra 1500-1700 usd in my opinion...
I just received mine from E Racing. They are push/pull and tested and assembled now. Coming from sfx100 they are quieter. Not sure if its because of the push/pull or why they are honestly but they are. My sfx100 was cncd also not 3d printed so its a pretty even comparison. Id have no problem recommending them to anyone. For the cost you cant go wrong. :)
 
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I am choosing seat for my rig.

I like the SPEED3 which i can order along with the P1-X, but not sure it will fit me.

Right now i play in a playseat WRC and my back and butt fits on the seat just fine not occupying the whole width of the seat neither at the bottom nor the back.

Looking at the measurements of the SPEED3 in the sim-lab page seems it could be a tight fit.

The B measure of 34cm of the image i attached is what worries me the most.

Any advice on bucket/seat?.It has to have hard shell as it seems to be the best for tactile
 

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I just received mine from E Racing. They are push/pull and tested and assembled now. Coming from sfx100 they are quieter. Not sure if its because of the push/pull or why they are honestly but they are. My sfx100 was cncd also not 3d printed so its a pretty even comparison. Id have no problem recommending them to anyone. For the cost you cant go wrong. :)
Just received mine today!
 
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This was a good video about why less is more:

The above is Gamer Muscles experience and since he has a professional and "proper" English accent it must be true and so you know he know his stuff. lol. Joking aside I think he is quite accurate.

Motion reproduction is a pluralistic problem, meaning there are many software, algorithmic, electrical, mechanical and even tuning aspects involved to get it just right. Will try to summarize as much as I can.

Q: Why less motion is good?
A: Less motion is good for "car racing" because there are typically two general types of motion you are trying to replicate. REAL queues like heave, high frequency suspension, pitch and roll. These are real effects because the motion platform can replicate them exactly as in the virtual environment. Otherwise all other motion queues are EFFECTS that a 3-DOF has to 'fake' , like using roll for sway and pitch for surge, to sell us the experience and get us immersed. Sway and surge since are both EFFECT layers and not REAL layers, in a 3-DOF actuator system because they are trying to do something they can't. So for example a motion algorithm can make a heave calculation that is TRULY representative of what is happening in the software. It is a direct relationship. So 4" of vehicle heave in iRacing for example is 0.4" movement in a the actuator. EFFECTS however have no direct relationship. And so they have to be painted, canned or artificial, and some "human" has to not only translate from simulated to real but also what that simulated should feel like. So a sway moment when turning a Miata is 0.5G and we can represent that with a 5-degree roll rotation, and an F1 car is 1.5G so lets represent that with a 15-degree rotation. Now does rotating the motion chassis more, indicate more G's? No, it feels awkward, and looks something like this, or what I often refer to as the most popular motion simulator video on the internet, with 7 million views:

Actually rotating/rolling the chassis too much or too quickly (speed/acceleration and jerk moments are another long topic) can actually effect your steering. Often I turn down my roll to a low number, specially with formula cars, as the sudden jerk moment that is used to replicate lateral force or sway moves my body and involuntarily the wheel and makes for unwanted steering inputs.

So our assumptions are that more travel will give you more effect, and it does sometimes, but often times, the effect is often canned or algorithmically tied to something like sustained cornering G that just cannot be fully replicated. Drivers soon realize that leaning the chassis more to one side, to have the effect of experiencing more G is fun but not accurate to the real world. In the real world you would feel the G in your seat through a lateral/side force and not via a roll. Now in flight sims, this effect is no longer an issue because its is not an effect but a more real representation. You DO have high degrees of roll and pitch in a flight sim. Hence why people always say, you don't need 6" or more unless you are doing flight.

So, the above is just scratching the surface when it comes to motion systems design and implementation. Like I said motion is a pluralistic problem with no real solutions, just compromises. In the end, like all engineering problems, you have to ask yourself what is your goal, what do you want to achieve, then spend majority of the time redefining the problem, really understanding it from the ground up and applying what you think is the best solution to meet your needs.

Here are other considerations:

1) algorithms - how well are the simulated forces replicated by the physical actuators, do all the layers compete for stroke, like dynamic allocation OR does each layer have a defined amount of stroke (another one of my pet peeves with some motion systems).

2) signal processing - Are the algorithms running in a non-real time system like Windows or are they running in a hard real-time embedded controller chipset?

3) controllers - is the system running Arduinos, or advanced Texas Instrument PRU's with deterministic, real-time processing, direct access to I/O and with ultra low latency. This difference may be in the micro-seconds but it all adds up in the end.

4) motors - are the motors able to consistently reproduce the necessary motion, over time, and with various chassis and driver total weight/mass. Are they tested by a third party so that their power claims are verified. Lot's of fake motor graphs out there. :)

5) electrical - are you just using a run of the mill switching power supply from Meanwell which is often not intended for motion applications, or bulky EMI producing servos? What kind of regenerative resistors do you have and are they spec'ed for the total chassis weight/mass.

6) seat/chassis - and maybe most import, is the chassis solid enough and is the seat mounted rigid enough so that you do not lose out on all the technology above by having cheap chinese seat brackets that bend and absorb most of the motions. This is something I realized late, and would almost always recommend a rigid, fixed back and fixed mount seat, Some proper seat mounts from companies like Tillett go for $400+ but are CNC'ed and not stamped and bent from steel plates. https://www.torqued.io/tillett-eb-f2-solid-aluminum-race-seat-mounting-bracket

7) driver location - does the sim software take into account the driver location on the motion platform and the distance of the actuators from one another to establish the best motion plane possible? meaning some people install their actuators more lengthwise than widthwise. If this number is not properly entered and calculated by the software than your degrees of roll will change with different actuator chassis mounting locations. So if an actuator is mounted 20" apart left to right but 40" from front to back (assuming a 4-post setup) then you will have a lot more ROLL then pitch in your system. Yes you can adjust that with sliders, but you are really guessing and the trig is not that complicated to calculate. ;-)

Lastly engine vibration:

Probably the best engine vibration (EV) reproduction is SimHub right now that I tried, just using the in-game sound as signal reference BUT dayton audio/buttkickers are low mass transducers, meaning they move a very small mass to try to give you a large effect, and again most important, mounting of transducers matters a lot. Mounting to aluminum, wood, composites etc, gives a different sensations each time. It's also messy with wiring and so forth but anyways the main point is that its a small mass diaphragm that moves around. Engine vibration with say 4-actuators or even a single actuator is much better in that it moves the whole chassis. The engine vibration translates throughout the whole chassis, like it would in a real car, its pretty cool. In some old V8's in iRacing like the LateModels (Oval dirt) and or the Trophy Trucks, you can not only feel the whole chassis move to the beat of the engine but also have it rotate the chassis as a longitudinally mounted engine would in a real car.

Effects are also common in EV and I think this is again something you only pick up after a few years of using motion systems. You will notice that some systems, just make a sine wave that "sounds" like a V8, I4, H6 etc... and just change the amplitude and frequency of the wave over time, this is what most people refer to as haptic, which is weird to me, but hey its marketing. Anyways, this works great at first, until iRacing releases a open wheel car that revs to 19,500 rpm. lol.

Hope that helps and stirs up this great conversation.

*** Above are my professional opinions and not financial advice ***
 
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Thanks PeterS¡.Impresive post.

I think the video confirmed me i am in the right track....Just focusing on tactile and adding a G-Belt.From there ill study if adding a motion system to achive those magical heave effects Gamer Muscles experience talks about.
 
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Engine vibration with say 4-actuators or even a single actuator is much better in that it moves the whole chassis. The engine vibration translates throughout the whole chassis, like it would in a real car, its pretty cool. In some old V8's in iRacing like the LateModels (Oval dirt) and or the Trophy Trucks, you can not only feel the whole chassis move to the beat of the engine but also have it rotate the chassis as a longitudinally mounted engine would in a real car.
Achive that would be amazing
 
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Thanks PeterS¡.Impresive post.

I think the video confirmed me i am in the right track....Just focusing on tactile and adding a G-Belt.From there ill study if adding a motion system to achive those magical heave effects Gamer Muscles experience talks about.
good point. there is no need to rush. transducers with SimHub software can be had for under $250 USD. at least here with our setup. That's fabulous value. Belt tensioners I like more than surge moments, which again cannot be sustained. But just having something simple, that is turn-key and you don't need to micky mouse to setup and play is also nice luxury. :) Enjoy the journey.
 
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I can't even watch that "most popular" motion platform video. If I saw that looking to get into motion, I'd have stopped as soon as I started. What an awful and ridiculous way to do anything, let alone simulate driving a car. Absolutely useless.
 
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I can't even watch that "most popular" motion platform video. If I saw that looking to get into motion, I'd have stopped as soon as I started. What an awful and ridiculous way to do anything, let alone simulate driving a car. Absolutely useless.
Indeed. But mind you this was also 10+ years ago and they could have just used it as a test platform at first. Simple and focused is best. Do what you can and do it well, don't cut corners and half ass it...
 
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