Motion system with 10000$ budget

[Pablo Roldan]

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).

 

[metalnwood]

Yes, for sure. What I was meaning is that as they also support tactile perhaps that is one reason why they dont really try to do much more than what they do with their engine.

The beauty of SRS is how simple it is to get things going though, and for the easy majority its all they will want.

Of course it doesnt try and tackle a number of effects in a tactile manner as the actuators are suited to give their own representation of TL, abs, accel, etc, with motion cues.

This isn't aimed at you @Tronicgr_6DOF as you are already well aware of it.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Srry

Yeah, so that seems similar to the haptic test on DBOX doing a set frequency sweep.

On something complex as engines, I assume SRS is (at best) implementing theirs to operate similarly as Simvibe based engine with harmonics. As the haptics will be limited to probably just over 100Hz? Therefore as the idle RPM for different cars will vary greatly as will their full RPM range. So one can only assume they seek to detect if the car is V4-V12 cylinder to then adapt what the fundamental frequency used, is. This to offer more suitable/usable frequencies for the cars with wider/larger RPM ranges?

While a nice feature to have and offer to motion owners, some drawbacks from this approach of "tactile" is that the user is limited to how good the effects are with no way of adapting them or tailoring them? That's also even before we take into account the limitations/issues of the generated tactile being output from the 4 corners and free to spread where it can over the whole rig frame. So even with positional effects, they are not necessarily reaching the users feet/body prior to possibly mixing L/R & F/R generated telemetry outputs.

Thanks Mr Latte for adding to the thread

So summarizing the haptics feature of the different actuators system should be irrelevant if you are aiming to implement an advanced tactile system?.Which is something i am willing to do.

Should the haptics feature of the motion system be switched off and let the tactile do all the work in that regard?

Should i then concentrate more on things like lenght travel , noise (and price thats always) to choose an actuator system?

 

[metalnwood]

You should certainly mix if you want the best experience. Tactile and motion together.

Then you start finding out what makes sense, engine rpm will make more sense on tactile transducers but mixing that with low engine idle on motion makes it that much better when you are standing and starting.

There is overlap with things like ABS, kerbs. You might like to mix them together, you may like one rather than the other for a particular effect. They complement each other but yes, I wouldnt spend the money on a dbox to get its tactile for example, I would spend less on motion and buy dedicated tactile.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

So first ill go with a new Cockpit and bucket this christmas.

Second:G-Belt and 2xButtkicker Advanced.I have family spending a year in EEUU so ill have them bringing them to Spain march next year or so.

Third:Later ill add probably 3xPT Actuators some time later next year

Fourth:Ill wait for PT to make their G-Seat (If they are really onto it) or wait until a find a good deal with simexperience one.... Whenever that happens

Thats the plan for now

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I am trying to decide between these two cockpits:

Sim-Lab P1-X
TR8020 Black TR160 Mach3
Cockpit KR270 PRO

¿Anything against them?.I would like more flexibility on the pedals placement (more height probably) but i guess you can always DIY something later.

Any advice/consideration from those owning an aluminium profile cockpits and motion actuators?

 

[metalnwood]

Performance wise the track racer and the p1 are going to be the same, basically the same strong design.

If you go forward with isolation and tactile then your pedal deck is going to get raised more as well. I have the P1 and it works with actuators pretty well. I think they sold quite a few to people building the sfx a couple years back.

I wouldnt go for the kr270 because it has handles that look like they would get in the way of where the front actuators are mounted. A small thing that you could work around, but compared to the others, no other features I would really like to make me want the small inconvenience. I also do not like those large 8020 style adjustable angle connectors that they are using to hold the wheel mount. It also lacks being able to adjust the wheel distance without moving the main uprights.. no thanks.

The track racer looke like it adds additional unnecessary height to the seat using the 80x40 profile on its side. Not sure what the reasoning is there - perhaps just to make it easier to get it but many people think that lower is better with motion as the feeling is different with a low COG.

For instance, roll, if you are low the sides are closer to moving up and down around you, the higher you go the more you are like at the top of a metronome moving side to side rather than rolling.

I started off low after hearing this and cant compare but others said after they moved lower the feeling was better.

The P1x is lower, the TR could be modified as well.

I think you would be happy with either, I know that with the p1 I have been able to fairly easily make any change I require to accommodate motion and tactile, its a known quantity for me so I would stick with it.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Performance wise the track racer and the p1 are going to be the same, basically the same strong design.

If you go forward with isolation and tactile then your pedal deck is going to get raised more as well. I have the P1 and it works with actuators pretty well. I think they sold quite a few to people building the sfx a couple years back.

I wouldnt go for the kr270 because it has handles that look like they would get in the way of where the front actuators are mounted. A small thing that you could work around, but compared to the others, no other features I would really like to make me want the small inconvenience. I also do not like those large 8020 style adjustable angle connectors that they are using to hold the wheel mount. It also lacks being able to adjust the wheel distance without moving the main uprights.. no thanks.

The track racer looke like it adds additional unnecessary height to the seat using the 80x40 profile on its side. Not sure what the reasoning is there - perhaps just to make it easier to get it but many people think that lower is better with motion as the feeling is different with a low COG.

For instance, roll, if you are low the sides are closer to moving up and down around you, the higher you go the more you are like at the top of a metronome moving side to side rather than rolling.

I started off low after hearing this and cant compare but others said after they moved lower the feeling was better.

The P1x is lower, the TR could be modified as well.

I think you would be happy with either, I know that with the p1 I have been able to fairly easily make any change I require to accommodate motion and tactile, its a known quantity for me so I would stick with it.

Thanks a lot metalInwood¡.You are giving me very usefull info

 

[OlaGB]

I went P1x as i couldnt find anyone talking it down basicly. Everybody seems to like it, and so do i. Trak racer probably does as good a job, but i didnt get the same impression om feedback as on the Simlab.

Just decided and ordered the Sigma DK2 4act system

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Just decided and ordered the Sigma DK2 4act system

I really like that system, talking to a reseller here in Europe that might sell it without paying that much taxes. Id that travel distance is enough for GT/F1 i think ill go for it over PT-Actuators.

Enjoy it¡

 

[OlaGB]

I really like that system, talking to a reseller here in Europe that might sell it without paying that much taxes. Id that travel distance is enough for GT/F1 i think ill go for it over PT-Actuators.

Enjoy it¡

I cant talk for other’s needs, but for myself i believe i only would miss more travel for flight sim’s, which i dont do at all today (maybe in the future, who knows).
I’m all about presicion, low latency etc.. and i dont want to spend all my sim-time in settings menu’s.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

I cant talk for other’s needs, but for myself i believe i only would miss more travel for flight sim’s, which i dont do at all today (maybe in the future, who knows).
I’m all about presicion, low latency etc.. and i dont want to spend all my sim-time in settings menu’s.

SRS is plug and play, same level as Dbox software... it's not complex at all, unlike simtools or FlyPT which are for DIY...

SRS now has also cloud profiles support, with pre tuned by professionals in the field. I don't understand why people keep referring SRS + PT-ACTUATOR actuators as DIY... they are far from it. Are you are still reading posts from 3 years ago?

You can get 100mm scorpion actuators too, if you like to save like 50usd difference... or just buy the 150mm and limit the stroke on the software for the type of game you are using each time.


Just to clarify about DIY and actuators... DIY are sfx100 actuators where you have to visit like 10 different suppliers to collect all parts, 3D print some of the parts and then after a few weeks assemble all pieces together using tools you need to also buy if you don't have. Another DIY type is eracing-lab actuators, where you get all prefabricated parts and then spend a day or two to assemble all parts in actuators.

PT-ACTUATOR, the actuators come already assembled, ready to mount on your rig, cockpit or whatever you already use. Same are Dbox... are Dbox DIY then?

 

[OlaGB]

SRS is plug and play, same level as Dbox software... it's not complex at all, unlike simtools or FlyPT which are for DIY...

SRS now has also cloud profiles support, with pre tuned by professionals in the field. I don't understand why people keep referring SRS + PT-ACTUATOR actuators as DIY... they are far from it. Are you are still reading posts from 3 years ago?

You can get 100mm scorpion actuators too, if you like to save like 50usd difference... or just buy the 150mm and limit the stroke on the software for the type of game you are using each time.


Just to clarify about DIY and actuators... DIY are sfx100 actuators where you have to visit like 10 different suppliers to collect all parts, 3D print some of the parts and then after a few weeks assemble all pieces together using tools you need to also buy if you don't have. Another DIY type is eracing-lab actuators, where you get all prefabricated parts and then spend a day or two to assemble all parts in actuators.

PT-ACTUATOR, the actuators come already assembled, ready to mount on your rig, cockpit or whatever you already use. Same are Dbox... are Dbox DIY then?

Where have i said PT/SRS is DIY?

Ive done my research, done my choice in what i believe is best for me.
Nothing wrong with PT, Thanos or SFX for that matter.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Where have i said PT/SRS is DIY?

Ive done my research, done my choice in what i believe is best for me.
Nothing wrong with PT, Thanos or SFX for that matter.

Well, you did say this:

I’m all about presicion, low latency etc.. and i dont want to spend all my sim-time in settings menu’s.

And to confuse you further, I'll just share this... endless possibilities...

 

[OlaGB]

Well, you did say this:





And to confuse you further, I'll just share this... endless possibilities...
View attachment 511343

Yes i did, and thats not talking down all other systems than Sigma’s. Why so easily provoced?
But yes, i do belive in Sigma and theire approach.

Not confused at all, thats probably the drawing for DK6, that Sigma’s allready told me about might be coming next year.
If i wanted a 6’’ system, then i would have bought one

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

Yes i did, and thats not talking down all other systems than Sigma’s. Why so easily provoced?
But yes, i do belive in Sigma and theire approach.

Not confused at all, thats probably the drawing for DK6, that Sigma’s allready told me about might be coming next year.
If i wanted a 6’’ system, then i would have bought one

Well, not exactly, but option to mount 80ST-M02430 real servomotor... just saying.



Not that clearpath motors are not servos, I used them briefly in the past, before switching to AC servos...

 

[OlaGB]

Well, not exactly, but option to mount 80ST-M02430 real servomotor... just saying.

View attachment 511344

Not that clearpath motors are not servos, I used them briefly in the past, before switching to AC servos...

I’m sure thats a good choice for you and what you are doing.

Sigma talks very positive about other systems as well, and i don’t think either you or Sigma has found the only way to approach motion with a good result

I’ve had contact with _alot_ of people to conclude my choice, endes up with Dbox and DK2 as what fit me and my wishes best.
Not saying i couldnt be happy with a different system, but in the end you got to choose

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Looking for a bucket , do all come with atleast bottom mounting holes?.

So first ill go with a new Cockpit and bucket this christmas.

Second:G-Belt and 2xButtkicker Advanced.I have family spending a year in EEUU so ill have them bringing them to Spain march next year or so.

Third:Later ill add probably 3xPT Actuators some time later next year

Fourth:Ill wait for PT to make their G-Seat (If they are really onto it) or wait until a find a good deal with simexperience one.... Whenever that happens

Thats the plan for now

Change of plans already haha.... Ill start with the cockpit and bucket which will be:

Cockpit1-X
Bucket:Sim-Labs SPEED3 (Here looking for confort and tactile setup, open ti comments and alternatives)

Ill spend some time and money here improving the tactile system for which ill probably use my currents entry level bodyshakes + a new Buttkicker LFE.

Will a NU1000DSP will be enough for the buttkicker or should i get a 3000DSP?

G-Belt will have to wait since im not willing to spend that much money in customs.Unless i find some other way to get it actuators will come first.

As actuator advice:Can someone that has tried 3 actuators setup vs 4 actuators tell his experience?

And BTW, how do you do people with motion systems hold mouse and keyboard in place?(Do you use trackpad and anchor keyboard?)

 

[metalnwood]

Given your original budget would just go for four.

If you go for three make sure that you know what will go on your rig in the future. On the P1 by default there is nothing to mount the single one to the front and depending on your size, adding a brace at the front may interfere with your pedal tray.

So you need to mount it at the back, make sure that it will be compatible with any active seat belt tensioner you may go for. Things you mount directly to back of the seat are fine, just be weary that you dont go for a solution that would need to mount on the back of the p1 at the same place as the actuator. though with 8020 there are always ways to do things.

 

[d69morpwr]

SRS is plug and play, same level as Dbox software... it's not complex at all, unlike simtools or FlyPT which are for DIY...

SRS now has also cloud profiles support, with pre tuned by professionals in the field. I don't understand why people keep referring SRS + PT-ACTUATOR actuators as DIY... they are far from it. Are you are still reading posts from 3 years ago?

You can get 100mm scorpion actuators too, if you like to save like 50usd difference... or just buy the 150mm and limit the stroke on the software for the type of game you are using each time.


Just to clarify about DIY and actuators... DIY are sfx100 actuators where you have to visit like 10 different suppliers to collect all parts, 3D print some of the parts and then after a few weeks assemble all pieces together using tools you need to also buy if you don't have. Another DIY type is eracing-lab actuators, where you get all prefabricated parts and then spend a day or two to assemble all parts in actuators.

PT-ACTUATOR, the actuators come already assembled, ready to mount on your rig, cockpit or whatever you already use. Same are Dbox... are Dbox DIY then?

E Racing come tested and assembled now they just havent updated the site.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Given your original budget would just go for four.

If you go for three make sure that you know what will go on your rig in the future. On the P1 by default there is nothing to mount the single one to the front and depending on your size, adding a brace at the front may interfere with your pedal tray.

So you need to mount it at the back, make sure that it will be compatible with any active seat belt tensioner you may go for. Things you mount directly to back of the seat are fine, just be weary that you dont go for a solution that would need to mount on the back of the p1 at the same place as the actuator. though with 8020 there are always ways to do things.

If thats the case, having the single actuator at the back wont make me feel roll as much as the other way around and it will be in the way in case a make the DIY G-Belt.I am more on the short side so probably the single Actuator could fit at the front, but any way i think ill just save myself the trouble and go for 4 actuators.

Thanks

10000$ is money, but in Europe simracing gear is more expensive and you have to look carefully to get the most out of it