Logitech DFGT FFB deadzone

[bapt33]

Hi,

Its been 2 days i look everywhere on google to find how to get rid of the FFB deadzone in the center of my wheel . (DFGT)

The old trick seems to set overall strenght in logitech profiler to 107% , but i dont feel any difference vs 100% and i think it break linearity.

I play F1 2020 and ACC, so cannot do the LUT trick with wheelcheck.

Im just looking for feedback about people using DFGT to try to get rid of this FFB deadzone.

My logitech profiler settings are :

Overall strenght 100%, all other 0%.

allow game to ajust settings ticked.

In F1 2020 overall strenght 70% and damping strenght 0.

I know ACC as the minimum force feature, but i dont feel any difference.

 

[RasmusP]

One clear head more on the internet
Glad I could explain it well enough. This stuff is complicated and almost all developers who could actually see the source codes of all this never post a clear answer to anything...

I could give a try, set wheel damper to 50% in game, and see if there is a difference when i set damper FFB to 0 or 100 in logitech profiler, if there is no difference, this mean the wheel damper from

That's the way to do it!
I have multiple pages of "testing protocols" on my pc. I created an "ffb flowchart diagram" for raceroom...

However instead of testing and adjusting the damper channel you could also just leave the channels at 100% and just check what the setting from the game does to the ffb.
And then just set this to your liking.
At least you can be assured that the setting will actually do something!

I've seen a lot of people putting the damper channel to 0% and then complaining that the wheel weight setting won't do anything in dirt rally and that the wheel would feel "unrealistcly spongy"...

 

[bapt33]

One clear head more on the internet
Glad I could explain it well enough. This stuff is complicated and almost all developers who could actually see the source codes of all this never post a clear answer to anything...


That's the way to do it!
I have multiple pages of "testing protocols" on my pc. I created an "ffb flowchart diagram" for raceroom...

However instead of testing and adjusting the damper channel you could also just leave the channels at 100% and just check what the setting from the game does to the ffb.
And then just set this to your liking.
At least you can be assured that the setting will actually do something!

I've seen a lot of people putting the damper channel to 0% and then complaining that the wheel weight setting won't do anything in dirt rally and that the wheel would feel "unrealistcly spongy"...

Yes exactly, i think what is confusing for people is they think if you set spring FFB or damper FFB to 100% , it will apply this force on its own whatever the game setting is, but only Self centering spring FFB from logitech profiler do that. FFB damper and FFB spring setting to 100% just allow the game to use it up to 100% according to the in game setting.
But i mean no one explain this clearly except you, ive see many guys on reddit saying to just set to 0% to dont have artificial effect but its wrong, logitech dont explain this clearly also.

Im glad its clear for me know and i thanks you a lot, i was brainwashed since 2 days to try undertsand how the profiler work.

 

[AccAkut]

I've seen a lot of people putting the damper channel to 0% and then complaining that the wheel weight setting won't do anything in dirt rally and that the wheel would feel "unrealistcly spongy"...

but this is down to how the specific game settings work, right? I just remember from LFS that one should (on Logitech wheel at the time) set everything to 0%, except overall strength to at least 101%, and LFS would do the rest based on this. Was even advice from the Devs itself iirc

 

[alfye20]

Sure It is Game dependant, Euro Truck series works with DirectInput effects like Dampers spring and sine wave.
If im not wrong, in Logitech wheelbases, sine effects are bottled in Overall force slider, or Damping one, dont remember very clearly

 

[RasmusP]

but this is down to how the specific game settings work, right? I just remember from LFS that one should (on Logitech wheel at the time) set everything to 0%, except overall strength to at least 101%, and LFS would do the rest based on this. Was even advice from the Devs itself iirc

Yes it depends on the game!
I started simracing with pcars 1 so I never drove lfs. I had a thrustmaster ffb wheel as a kid though and played all need for speeds with it.

Since this tm wheel didn't have any dead zone, I really struggled to like my g27.. And therefore got sucked into testing it all and finding out how everything works.

About "even the devs advise it":
Stefano from kunos doesn't use minimum force or a LUT in AC on his G27 (or 25, I forgot). So he's driving with a massive hole of nothing in the center position.
I could never drive like that... Feels like my steering rods wouldn't be attached...

Apparently there once was a bug that needed the overall ffb set to more than 100% to activate any ffb at all but I've never seen it...
And honestly, I'm doubting it

You also often see 107% being recommended. From my judgment, that's down to games not having a minimum force setting so people are trying to get rid of the dead zone by increasing the ffb. I did it myself with dirt rally. Although it was 120% for me then.

I'm not sure why the devs of lfs would tell you to put spring and damper to 0%.
There are only 2 possibilities:
1. They weren't used by lfs so it didn't make any difference anyway.
2. They were used but the devs didn't like what they were sending to these ffb channels?

In both cases it doesn't make sense...

 

[AccAkut]

Yes it depends on the game!
I started simracing with pcars 1 so I never drove lfs. I had a thrustmaster ffb wheel as a kid though and played all need for speeds with it.

Since this tm wheel didn't have any dead zone, I really struggled to like my g27.. And therefore got sucked into testing it all and finding out how everything works.

About "even the devs advise it":
Stefano from kunos doesn't use minimum force or a LUT in AC on his G27 (or 25, I forgot). So he's driving with a massive hole of nothing in the center position.
I could never drive like that... Feels like my steering rods wouldn't be attached...

Apparently there once was a bug that needed the overall ffb set to more than 100% to activate any ffb at all but I've never seen it...
And honestly, I'm doubting it

You also often see 107% being recommended. From my judgment, that's down to games not having a minimum force setting so people are trying to get rid of the dead zone by increasing the ffb. I did it myself with dirt rally. Although it was 120% for me then.

I'm not sure why the devs of lfs would tell you to put spring and damper to 0%.
There are only 2 possibilities:
1. They weren't used by lfs so it didn't make any difference anyway.
2. They were used but the devs didn't like what they were sending to these ffb channels?

In both cases it doesn't make sense...

The 101% thing was about FFB scaling iirc, something about forces not being equal if you put it lower. But it's been a while, can't remember.
With spring and damper, LFS did not have sliders for those (but again I can't check, I'm at work right now). What LFS did have was Caster and Ackermann adjustment as part of the car's setup, which obviously allowed a huge deal of change to the cars feedback.

 

[RasmusP]

The 101% thing was about FFB scaling iirc, something about forces not being equal if you put it lower. But it's been a while, can't remember.
With spring and damper, LFS did not have sliders for those (but again I can't check, I'm at work right now). What LFS did have was Caster and Ackermann adjustment as part of the car's setup, which obviously allowed a huge deal of change to the cars feedback.

Found this:

Wheels - LFS Manual

en.lfsmanual.net

"Open up your Logitech Profiler and then the FFB (Force Feedback) settings window: either "Options" - "Global Device Settings" or if you are using game profiles "Edit" - "Specific Game Settings". Suggested settings are these (also shown in the screenshot):

• Overall Effects Strength - Set to 101-105% (101% is good value). Due to problems inside the Logitech Profiler the FFB only starts to act linearly when set over 100%. You can always fine tune the level of FFB in LFS's Options > Controls or you can adjust it "on the fly" while driving with the FFB (Force Feedback) shortcut keys.
• Spring Effect Strength - Set to 0%. It is Logitech driver based effect and practically LFS does not need this (confirmed by the game developer).
• Damper Effect Strength - Set to 0%. It is Logitech driver based effect and practically LFS does not need this (confirmed by the game developer)."

My problem with this part is that "the devs" confirmed that the spring and damper ffb channels are "Logitech's driver based effects", which simply is not true.
So I'm also really questioning the "linearity 101-105%" part...

This brings wheelcheck back:
Although I don't think that wheelcheck can really show the true "linearity" of a wheel due to the wheel's own friction might not be linear, it would definitely show differences!
I tested this back then: when you set the overall strength to 120%, wheelcheck won't really show a deadzone anymore for the G27.

I'm 99.9% sure that doing wheelcheck 2x: 1. with 100% and 2. with 101% will show a very identical curve.

 

[bapt33]

The 101% thing was about FFB scaling iirc, something about forces not being equal if you put it lower. But it's been a while, can't remember.
With spring and damper, LFS did not have sliders for those (but again I can't check, I'm at work right now). What LFS did have was Caster and Ackermann adjustment as part of the car's setup, which obviously allowed a huge deal of change to the cars feedback.

ive tried 100% damper logitech profiler in F1 2020, and then set wheel damper in game to 10% make already the steer really heavy to turn on my DFGT, its like you drive a truck (but its a F1)

so ive find set damper FFB to 25% in profiler, make the wheel damper setting in game more accurate and less agressive, i can now set wheel damper in game to like 6-7%, so if 100% in game is 25% in profiler, 100X25 divided by 7, it make the damper to 1.75% of the maxiumum damper strenght.

 

[alfye20]

ive tried 100% damper logitech profiler in F1 2020, and then set wheel damper in game to 10% make already the steer really heavy to turn on my DFGT, its like you drive a truck (but its a F1)

so ive find set damper FFB to 25% in profiler, make the wheel damper setting in game more accurate and less agressive, i can now set wheel damper in game to like 6-7%, so if 100% in game is 25% in profiler, 100X25 divided by 7, it make the damper to 1.75% of the maxiumum damper strenght.

Now you are a DirectInput effect Master!

About LFS and profile Damper/spring at 0%, It is like on iRacing, those effects are related to Game physics and then sent to wheelbases via ConstantForce (Overall force)
If Damping or spring are ON into wheelbase profile, DirectX may cause weird things like constant DirectInput Damping or muted spring effects. Microsoft things

Next gear: Simucube 2 endless tuning profiles

 

[RasmusP]

Now you are a DirectInput effect Master!

About LFS and profile Damper/spring at 0%, It is like on iRacing, those effects are related to Game physics and then sent to wheelbases via ConstantForce (Overall force)
If Damping or spring are ON into wheelbase profile, DirectX may cause weird things like constant DirectInput Damping or muted spring effects. Microsoft things

Next gear: Simucube 2 endless tuning profiles

Thanks, that makes sense!
But why would the developers let their game output stuff that they don't want?
Couldn't they just disable them in the game?

 

[alfye20]

I think is not the Game doing weird things, but Windows DirectInput activation procedures, like "Start device ID#1=DirectInputEffects activated but not active -wait to device inputs" so developers recomendations may be in regards of wheelbase profiles

Im not an expert at all... Im talking by feelings

 

[bapt33]

I think is not the Game doing weird things, but Windows DirectInput activation procedures, like "Start device ID#1=DirectInputEffects activated but not active -wait to device inputs" so developers recomendations may be in regards of wheelbase profiles

Im not an expert at all... Im talking by feelings

I like how windows break anything they touch, even if the thing work great at first, windows come and said : "i will broke that down"

 

[alfye20]

Thats how a 20 years old API works I suppose, its the same since MS Midtown Madness and NFS Porsche

 

[bapt33]

Thats how a 20 years old API works I suppose, its the same since MS Midtown Madness and NFS Porsche

you mean directX 9?

 

[alfye20]

DirectInput effects are part of DirectX library since DX5, but perfectioned with DX7 iirc

Force Feedback | Inside Direct3D (Dv-Mps Inside)

Inside Direct3D (Dv-Mps Inside),1999, (isbn 0735606137, ean 0735606137), by Kovach P. J.

flylib.com

After that, you Will Know about patent problems and no more MicroSoft force feedback devices on the market, so no more DirectInput updates

 

[bapt33]

DirectInput effects are part of DirectX library since DX5, but perfectioned with DX7 iirc

Force Feedback | Inside Direct3D (Dv-Mps Inside)

Inside Direct3D (Dv-Mps Inside),1999, (isbn 0735606137, ean 0735606137), by Kovach P. J.

flylib.com

After that, you Will Know about patent problems and no more MicroSoft force feedback devices on the market, so no more DirectInput updates

Damn, directX 7 ... im feeling old right now ...