PC1 Let's kill one of the biggest misconception about WMD

[c172fccc]

A misconception so big that SMS and many WMD members are getting wrong.

"Project CARS was tested by 80 000 people"

Yeah, let's kill that one.

1. Where does this miconception come from?

On wmdportal, at the bottom, it is written

.

2. Why is it wrong?

It isn't wrong, it is very true. The problem is that free members and people with multiple account (I'll talk about this) are included in that count.

3. So how do we count how many are paid account than?

The answer is in the face of everyone.

This:

Let's do some math.
A Junior account is 10€, Team Member is 25€, Full Member is 50€, Manager is 1000€ and Senior Manager is 25000€.

88180/10 = 8818
255025/25 = 10201
380315/50 = 7606,3 (it doesn't work for some reasons)
158300/100 = 1583
486805/1000 = 486,805 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
887030/25000 = 35,4812 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
For a total of 28 731 members, and that's just the maximum.

4.Why is it the maximum?

What if you wanted to put more than 100€, but 1000€ was too much? It's easy, you just had to buy another account.

What if you wanted to put more than 1000€, but 25 000€ is too much? Managers could have a multiplier. You could be Manage (x1.75), for example.

What if you wanted to put more than 25 000€? Senior Manager could also have a multiplier.

I doubt there was more than 20 000 different people.

5. So that's it, there was approximately 20 000 people testing the game?

Not really. Some of these people never really tried the game for many reasons. Some people didn't have a proper pc to play the game, some people were just waiting for the final game, some people were here only for the money, ect.

And that's not all. Testing the game is nothing if you are not reporting. If you had a crash, you had to go on the forum to post them, nothing was automatic. Same thing for bugs, you had to report them.

I counted some times ago that there was exactly 9697 members with at least 1 post on the forum and most of them probably didn't ever post proper feedback. Also don't forget that people that only reported things 4 years ago are included in this count.


In conclusion, SMS, WMD Members and everyone, stop saying that there was 80 000 testers. Say more than 20 000 testers, and you're still wrong. Say more than 20 000 backers and you might be right.

 

[Andy_J]

Ermo is an investor. A Pcars manager too. This means he invested quite a bit.

But that is not the point here. Ermo, your eloquent answers do indeed help the situation here. But as everyone wonders and ponders the question, I'll ask it. How come these obvious MP bugs and the various other career bugs, cars floating in the air etc etc, got through all you guys?

 

[ermo]

This could go on and on and on. ermo, how exactly are you affiliated with SMS? Are you an investor, or an employee. I thought investor, but I'm not sure, and don't care to read back.

WMD Member/Toolpack owner. The real investors negotiated investment deals outside the WMD portal (they are marked as 'Senior Managers' usually). I'm not one of those and I don't work for SMS.

I am the current maintainer of the Unofficial Community Patch for S2U and authored its automated unpacking scripts (which take advantage of Luigi Aremma's BMS BFF unpacking scripts) because the previous UCP maintainer suggested that we made S2U modding easier somehow. I should note that I mostly concerned myself with automation, packaging and documentation -- others did the actual digging in the game files and developed workarounds and fixes.

I also exposed a few bugs for the original SHIFT game, including the broken brake balance slider and the fact that the Telemetry UI doesn't show correct power output, just as I documented the formula SMS used for turbo upgrades.

I started out as a €25 WMD Team Member, because I was highly suspicious of SMS' motives and why they wouldn't acknowledge bugs when we posted about them on NoGrip, and because Ian suggested that we'd get source code access and tools with which to modify S2U as part of the pCARS development (this didn't happen as pCARS diverged significantly from the S2U tech -- c'est la vie).

On the WMD forums, I was initially very sceptical about how SMS went about their business, but as I began engaging with the devs, I realized that they had been under NDAs and that they were in fact very open to receiving bug reports with clear repros and were both humble and professional about it (it turns out that the input latency bugs hadn't manifested themselves because they only became visible on lower-end hardware and SMS had only higher-end hardware so had never actually seen the issues in-house).

As SMS -- as promised -- began transparently introducing fixes for what I considered to be the most glaring issues in S2U (input latency among other things), I was suitably impressed and upgraded to the €100 Senior level. As I kept tabs on the development, I promised myself that if SMS delivered on their promise of landing a rewritten FFB subsystem that I'd upgrade to Manager (€1000) in order to support them and get access to write PMs to the devs.

Well, they did and here I am. The FFB subsystem has been one of the areas I followed closely, and I like to think that the input I gave has made a difference for G27 users. I also argued strongly in favor for allowing 'sandbox modding' (offline-only tinkering to avoid having to deal with cheaters online) but sadly that was voted down, despite the fact that Ian voiced his support for modding initially.

I have had some very productive and enlightening conversations with both the physics guys and the other software developers, so those €1000 were well spent in my personal opinion. If I happen to get any returns on the amount I put in, it will go towards saving up for a Fanatec CSW v2 setup as I'm currently on a lowly G27. TrackIR is also on the horizon, but that CSW v2 sure is an expensive piece of kit.

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of Niels Heusinkveld too and I wish him and Reiza Studios (and Kunos and the rF2 and RRRE teams) all the success in the world. Competition is good and we're totally spoilt for choice in the Sim space these days!

 

[ermo]

Ermo is an investor. A Pcars manager too. This means he invested quite a bit.

But that is not the point here. Ermo, your eloquent answers do indeed help the situation here. But as everyone wonders and ponders the question, I'll ask it. How come these obvious MP bugs and the various other career bugs, cars floating in the air etc etc, get through all you guys?

Good question.

Personally, I simply got fed up with testing the game around Christmas 2014, partly because of being extremly annoyed that the game often wouldn't even start when I had planned to test it (if you think it has bugs now, well, it's been much worse!), and partly because the devs 'tuned out' from the forum (as I explained earlier in the thread) because they needed to focus on delivering on the scheduled features.

I also don't own a headset, so aside from the teething issues, I couldn't speak with my fellow players (I wear hearing aids and it's hard to find good, on-ear headsets with microphones -- I'm open to suggestions here!), which took a lot of the fun out of it.

So basically I mostly hotlapped and assessed the quality of the STM and FFB, the areas which interested me the most. And since the SMS dev director said that it was ok to keep quiet if one didn't have anything constructive to say, I kept quiet and figured that I'd regain the inclination to test, but it never really happened. I guess you could say that I ended up suffering from development fatigue. Then life happened and I went back to school and began attending a 40-week course to become qualified to work as a certified mechanic because, given my modding experience, I wanted to learn more about what makes cars tick before I continue studying to become a Mechanical Engineer with an automotive focus. The idea is to learn all there is to learn about cars and then apply my previous Comp. Sci. training in learning how to simulate them.

Since release, I have reported the FFB bugs I have encountered and have tried to keep up to date with things. And ... that's about it?

 

[SwaggerJacker]

The head of a studio should never be online arguing with customers;period. Say what you will, but it is in very bad taste to do so. He has also from time to time outright insulted people. He is in a position where retaliation is never an option. ermo, I would be extremely disappointed if you were to spin this to put Ian in a better light.

To be honest, I think you're here doing damage control. Ian has pissed on one of the biggest online sim racing presence, and though he's an horse's butt, he knows he screwed up. Then again, perhaps he doesn't, or he may not care one way or the other. You've made some really good points here. Some were thought provoking, but after reading post #119 and I see this " Later in that thread Ian gets annoyed with another customer and bites back. Note that this only happens after 3 (4 if you count the one I quoted) polite and informative answers from Ian's side and that nobody was banned or infracted." You are excusing his behavior. Are you saying it is okay for him to "bite back" after being informative didn't work out for him. The key word there is customer. Are you hearing me?

Ian has in my opinion lost much monies for investors. Were I an significant investor, I'd be considering litigation.This game was good enough that, had SMS, Ian in particular been apologetic and honestly tried to fix issues with the game (sans insults from the top guy), this thread would not exist. Because of him, SMS (though this will never be admitted) is back pedaling like a rookie cornerback. A large portion of WMD have contributed to this with their own buckets of petrol. Then again, Ian has set the precedent.

What Ian has done is start a firestorm. This has affected patches, funding for the next iteration, public opinion (affects everything) and most of all, profits. I too don't believe Project Cars 1 is fixable. To this point both patches have been mostly useless. Most of the major bugs still exist, and Ian is still acting like he's above reproach.

Swagg

 

[Andy_J]

@ermo Well any way, thanks for your work on Shift 2. I have thanked you previously on No Grip. You amongst many others fixed that monstrocity of an SMS race game. I really liked Shift 2 after your mod.

Still it's a pity they reneged on the source code bit for Shift 2 though.

 

[ermo]

You've made some really good points here. Some were thought provoking, but after reading post #119 and I see this " Later in that thread Ian gets annoyed with another customer and bites back. Note that this only happens after 3 (4 if you count the one I quoted) polite and informative answers from Ian's side and that nobody was banned or infracted." You are excusing his behavior. Are you saying it is okay for him to "bite back" after being informative didn't work out for him. The key word there is customer. Are you hearing me?

Ian is a grown man and does what he does, while I do what I do. I'm not responsible for him and he's not responsible for me.

I will point out that, if you read through the entire thread, you will see that the customer 'gets it' (the sarcasm he triggered in Ian) and readjusts his attitude. You will no doubt have noted that Bram also bites back when he feels that he is treated unfairly here at RD? (EDIT: The customer ended up with an infraction after breaking the forum rules relating to repeated complaints about acknowledged issues).

I do indeed have an opinion about how SMS have handled the community aspect and how this impacts their public image, which I have shared in private with the Super Moderators over at WMD and I have also posted suggestions on what to do in the WMD forum. I am disinclined to share that here in public*, which I hope you of all people (being in a leadership position @work) understand?

I am here at RD because I was (and am!) curious about which kind of people are on here. So far, my impression is that there is a lot of resentment about broken promises and then there's "that thread" which Ian/SMS might never live down. At the same time, and despite the lingering resentment/skepticism/suspicion, people generally appear to respond positively and sensibly to non-personal and respectful arguments even if they run counter to their own position.

*: To noone in particular: I humbly ask that people please don't go digging for my posts on the subject over at WMD to then share them here.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

Edited....Content removed

 

[ermo]

I don't dig. I'm not vested enough in this conversation or game to "dig" to make a point.

Ah, that point wasn't aimed at you specifically. My apologies if it came across that way.

I've edited my post to (hopefully!) make the intent clearer.

 

[ermo]

@ermo Well any way, thanks for your work on Shift 2. I have thanked you previously on No Grip. You amongst many others fixed that monstrocity of an SMS race game. I really liked Shift 2 after your mod.

Still it's a pity they reneged on the source code bit for Shift 2 though.

I was not specific enough in my comment re. source code. Ian was musing on NoGrip about the possibility of giving source code access to Project CARS in some way, shape or form (he didn't promise anything though!):

But my idea is to let anyone interested invest in the development both financially and with their time if they want. We would ship a full toolset to all subscribers. Ship a build at least weekly with source code at the app level for those so inclined to have a tinker there.

(source)

Ian also stated early on in the project that he would be open to give us tools with which to mod the MADNESS engine stuff in S2U, but he never said anything about source code access to S2U (since he only owns the MADNESS engine IP but not the S2U game assets and the SHIFT franchise IP).

One of these days (once the devs are less busy with bugfixing) I'm thinking of asking if there's any possiblity that we could get access to the documentation of the BFF structure as used in S2U so as to develop better and less tediuos modding tools now that Project CARS is out with better input subsystem, FFB system and tyre physics. Don't know if I'll get around to it though, as I'm pretty much over S2U at this point (but seing as I open sourced the unpacking method, others have picked up the torch).

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

You will no doubt have noted that Bram also bites back when he feels that he is treated unfairly here at RD?

There is a difference in biting back with sourced opinions/facts or biting back with banning accounts (for no reason). Of which the latter i don't think you'll find a single one in this sub-forum since it opened.

This constantly banning people and creating a storm with it is another one of those techniques to get attention and boost sales and brand awareness. Unfortunately passionate gamers / customers aren't capable to just ignore it and therefore they are giving him exactly what he wants by jumping on it and make a big fuzz out of it.

The whole escalation of the banned for no reason thread years back was a first indication of the above and people fall for it like a bull to a red rag (me included). And some of the threads opened here in the recent past serve the exact same goal.

And there you have the power of the WMD investment marketing model in a nutshell. .

 

[ermo]

I actually read through that thread and I have a question which I'll post in a PM to avoid any associated fallout.

But your point is duly noted.

EDIT: I see I am not allowed to PM you @Bram Hengeveld. Is there a way to get in touch with you in private?

 

[Jake Fangio]

Ian is a grown man and does what he does, while I do what I do. I'm not responsible for him and he's not responsible for me. OK

I will point out that, if you read through the entire thread, you will see that the customer 'gets it' (the sarcasm he triggered in Ian) and readjusts his attitude. You will no doubt have noted that Bram also bites back when he feels that he is treated unfairly here at RD? (EDIT: The customer ended up with an infraction after breaking the forum rules relating to repeated complaints about acknowledged issues).

I do indeed have an opinion about how SMS have handled the community aspect and how this impacts their public image, which I have shared in private with the Super Moderators over at WMD and I have also posted suggestions on what to do in the WMD forum. I am disinclined to share that here in public*, which I hope you of all people (being in a leadership position @work) understand?

I am here at RD because I was (and am!) curious about which kind of people are on here. So far, my impression is that there is a lot of resentment about broken promises and then there's "that thread" which Ian/SMS might never live down. At the same time, and despite the lingering resentment/skepticism/suspicion, people generally appear to respond positively and sensibly to non-personal and respectful arguments even if they run counter to their own position.

*: To noone in particular: I humbly ask that people please don't go digging for my posts on the subject over at WMD to then share them here.

Thank you for the dignity and maturity you have shown in this thread.You are an example to us all,I wish that I had this kind of attitude. But alas I'm a hothead,so I've kept my fingers off the keyboard. I'm so glad I can look back and not be embarrassed by my comments.

 

[ermo]

Thank you for your kind words, Sir. Much appreciated.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

""I think we underestimated the amount of work and variation involved in comparison to say a single make racing game"""

I'm not trying to be a prick here, but I saw this coming YEARS ago, and it's part of this bizarre world we live in where all games are sims have biggish carlists and must also have top notch gfx.....too bad the games aren't sims, but far worse, don't operate properly.

Would SMS be willing to hire Chronus as physics/FFB consultant, even part time?.....he's made some of the best sim cars I've ever driven, incredibly tight feel thru the entire ffb range and instantaneous response to throttle/brake and steering input, and THEY'RE NOT HARD TO DRIVE, NOT THE LEAST, but if you push, then you'll experience how detailed his physics model is.

Chronus's background is THEORETICAL PHYSICS and he's not one of the "difficulty=realism" brigade, yet he can't get a job in the racing games market even after a fiasco like this......just ridiculous.

Could you imagine how great F1 2016 would be with proper tight and dynamic physics, Chronus could build that game as his output for proper sim cars is approx 12-15 per year, but given the fact that they're all F1 Cars, he could build a handful to spec, and the rest could just be downgraded on power, but instead, we have dodgy physics, lightweight uncommunicative FFB and any number of bugs, and given he typically works as a computer analyst , he might be able to help there as well.

Something wrong here guys, but solutions exist, in fact, Ermo sounds like another person who should be on the payroll.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Every physics engineer at every race gaming studio is able to produce proper handling cars if they are being told to do so David. Doug Arnao at SMS has a proper track list for that matter.

But programmers do what they are being told to do so replacing the physics guy won't change anything when the game isn't aimed at hardcore sim racers.

Hard handling sims don't sell to the masses and PCars obviously does in exceptionally large volumes for this genre.

Could you imagine how great F1 2016 would be with proper tight and dynamic physics

I can and it will probably drive fantastic. The game will sell 2,000 copies world wide after which the studios can close its doors and fire all employees

 

[David Ignjatovic]

The game will sell 2,000 copies world wide after which the studios can close its doors and fire all employees

But this is a misconception though, as the cars aren't hard to drive{except when really pushing}......also, two reasons real sims have lower sales is lower overall budgets which leads to less of a "game" and zero advertising at big gaming websites like Gamespot etc.....F1 is the ideal candidate for realistic physics as it's a small car list game and has decent gfx etc.

But then again, let's say the physics were left at simcade, what about proper ffb synchronizing, that alone would be a worthwhile improvement imo.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

F1 is the ideal candidate for realistic physics as it's a small car list game and has decent gfx etc.

It isn't and will probably never will be close to be realistic either. They simply cannot afford the risk with such an expensive license hanging around their necks.

The majority of the F1 gaming fans aren't looking for realism, they want an immersive overall experience with a high dose of fun. Same applies to PCars as well.

There are plenty of proper F1 style cars in other sims available already.

two reasons real sims have lower sales is lower overall budgets which leads to less of a "game" and zero advertising at big gaming websites like Gamespot etc

True that. Sim racing companies don't even advertise on sim racing websites let alone on mainstream media.

 

[ermo]

too bad the games aren't sims, but far worse, don't operate properly.

Would SMS be willing to hire Chronus as physics/FFB consultant, even part time?.....he's made some of the best sim cars I've ever driven, incredibly tight feel thru the entire ffb range and instantaneous response to throttle/brake and steering input, and THEY'RE NOT HARD TO DRIVE, NOT THE LEAST, but if you push, then you'll experience how detailed his physics model is.

Chronus's background is THEORETICAL PHYSICS and he's not one of the "difficulty=realism" brigade, yet he can't get a job in the racing games market even after a fiasco like this......just ridiculous.

Could you imagine how great F1 2016 would be with proper tight and dynamic physics, Chronus could build that game as his output for proper sim cars is approx 12-15 per year, but given the fact that they're all F1 Cars, he could build a handful to spec, and the rest could just be downgraded on power, but instead, we have dodgy physics, lightweight uncommunicative FFB and any number of bugs, and given he typically works as a computer analyst , he might be able to help there as well.

Something wrong here guys, but solutions exist, in fact, Ermo sounds like another person who should be on the payroll.

For the record, I can't hold a candle to Chronus in the physics department or indeed most other technical aspects for that matter. Also (and I may be mistaken!) I was under the impression that Chronus did/does not actually write any of the physics code of the physics engines which he uses (GTR2 and GTR Evo?), though he has a deep understanding of them and is able to create and calibrate physics data to the highest professional level?

I have a LOT of respect for Chronus, in case that matters any. He is a deeply passionate, keenly discerning, supremely dedicated and overall extremely competent individual in my view.

I would like to highlight, though, that it is my understanding that massaging physics data for both proper realism (measurably correct behaviour as well as subjectively correct feel) is not just a science but also an art, which as you touch upon requires iteration over iteration over careful iteration.

As I understand it (see above), e.g. Chronus and Niels use well-known, well-understood models upon which to base their creations? The MADNESS tech (specifically the STM and the FFB subsystem) in its current pCARS iteration is still quite young compared to the ISI iMotor based engines utilising pacejka models. For now, the STM is proprietary tech the understanding of which has yet to spread to any significant extent in the modding community.

So taking a longer view, one wonders if not the STM and the associated FFB subsystem will become both more refined and better understood by both SMS (and possibly modders) in the years to come? I certainly keep seeing references to the fact that the physics guys at SMS keep learning about it as they explore it internally.

By the way David, which wheel do you use? A G27? What are your go-to sims if I may ask? GSC & GTR Evo? Which cars are your 'reference' cars for handling, feel and behaviour? I only ask in order to better understand the perspective from which you judge.

 

[Andy_J]

Chronos is a legend amongst the race sim fraternity. Very well respected by me. Hi is also a passionate gamer, flight simmer and general allround good guy. His talents would be lost at WMD.

Now if he and Geoff Crammond got together....................well that would be something.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

By the way David, which wheel do you use? A G27? What are your go-to sims if I may ask? GSC & GTR Evo? Which cars are your 'reference' cars for handling, feel and behaviour? I only ask in order to better understand the perspective from which you judge.

Yep, G27....
I only have SCE installed atm, and you could arguably use any SCE car as a reference point, but from GTR EVO I always liked the C6R and the F3000, but I've only driven OZ muscle cars and light jap sports cars, so wouldn't know for sure how a OWer behaves....that said, we can read about the behaviour of OWers and learn that they might have more pronounced behaviour due to their form factor, for example, the F3000 was one of the better vehicles in exhibiting lift off oversteer among other rl behaviours.