PC1 Let's kill one of the biggest misconception about WMD

[c172fccc]

A misconception so big that SMS and many WMD members are getting wrong.

"Project CARS was tested by 80 000 people"

Yeah, let's kill that one.

1. Where does this miconception come from?

On wmdportal, at the bottom, it is written

.

2. Why is it wrong?

It isn't wrong, it is very true. The problem is that free members and people with multiple account (I'll talk about this) are included in that count.

3. So how do we count how many are paid account than?

The answer is in the face of everyone.

This:

Let's do some math.
A Junior account is 10€, Team Member is 25€, Full Member is 50€, Manager is 1000€ and Senior Manager is 25000€.

88180/10 = 8818
255025/25 = 10201
380315/50 = 7606,3 (it doesn't work for some reasons)
158300/100 = 1583
486805/1000 = 486,805 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
887030/25000 = 35,4812 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
For a total of 28 731 members, and that's just the maximum.

4.Why is it the maximum?

What if you wanted to put more than 100€, but 1000€ was too much? It's easy, you just had to buy another account.

What if you wanted to put more than 1000€, but 25 000€ is too much? Managers could have a multiplier. You could be Manage (x1.75), for example.

What if you wanted to put more than 25 000€? Senior Manager could also have a multiplier.

I doubt there was more than 20 000 different people.

5. So that's it, there was approximately 20 000 people testing the game?

Not really. Some of these people never really tried the game for many reasons. Some people didn't have a proper pc to play the game, some people were just waiting for the final game, some people were here only for the money, ect.

And that's not all. Testing the game is nothing if you are not reporting. If you had a crash, you had to go on the forum to post them, nothing was automatic. Same thing for bugs, you had to report them.

I counted some times ago that there was exactly 9697 members with at least 1 post on the forum and most of them probably didn't ever post proper feedback. Also don't forget that people that only reported things 4 years ago are included in this count.


In conclusion, SMS, WMD Members and everyone, stop saying that there was 80 000 testers. Say more than 20 000 testers, and you're still wrong. Say more than 20 000 backers and you might be right.

 

[Chris]

I understand the whole WMD/Project CARS/Ian Bell subject(s) create a polarizing environment, but please remember that it is against forum rules to go on a down vote-brigade against a user.

Mutual respect between the people using the RaceDepartment.com website(s) and forums. This means you may not personally attack other forum users. Malicious behaviour and bullying will not be tolerated.

This includes down vote brigades.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Whilst ermo is a eloquent and polite individual, he does seem to be a SMS apologist. ....maybe at some point people will realise SMS don't know how to build bug free games, or have no intention of doing so, guaranteeing "some" buy their next game hoping for a decent piece of software......only time will tell, but given the cost of 40 staff, it needs to be fixed quickly and it defies reason that it can be.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

Whilst ermo is a eloquent and polite individual, he does seem to be a SMS apologist. ....maybe at some point people will realise SMS don't know how to build bug free games, or have no intention of doing so, guaranteeing "some" buy their next game hoping for a decent piece of software......only time will tell, but given the cost of 40 staff, it needs to be fixed quickly and it defies reason that it can be.

Post patch 2.0:
I just tried to race at Spa, car rolled on the grid at start. My fault, should have applied brakes. Come in to do my drive through, and on exit my car comes to an abrupt stop; cue very loud sound, then car jumps up in the air a few feet. after all four wheels are on the ground, I try to drive and the steering is very loose. The car is un-driveable. I'm assuming all tires were flat? Just, wow. Placebo. SMS have been lying to us concerning bug fixes. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Of course most of you already knew this, even if some of you will vehemently deny it. Que bmanic in 3-2-1.........

 

[Andy_J]

Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Of course most of you already knew this, even if some of you will vehemently deny it. Que bmanic in 3-2-1.........

I think Bmanic has gone back to the WMD school of excuses and Hater control (WSOEAHC) for some re-training. Ermo seems to have escaped the WMD hate everyone else group and is actually quite a friendly investor or so he seems. He speaks sensibly though. I think he is deep down ashamed of the behaviour of General Bell and his chronies. But that is just my subjective opinion.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Think about it like this....maybe some of the investors knew from day1 that planned obsolescence was in operation, this would explain why all of a sudden sim communities split into WMD nutters or normal sim fans.

Why do you think the modders were shown the door so quickly. ...could it be they had the knowledge to spot the get rich scheme a mile away?

 

[ermo]

Post patch 2.0:
I just tried to race at Spa, car rolled on the grid at start. My fault, should have applied brakes. Come in to do my drive through, and on exit my car comes to an abrupt stop; cue very loud sound, then car jumps up in the air a few feet. after all four wheels are on the ground, I try to drive and the steering is very loose. The car is un-driveable. I'm assuming all tires were flat? Just, wow.

I think I saw that bug reported on the official forums too. Was it SP or MP? Career? QRW? I haven't seen it myself so far, but not doubting you just did. The AI uses a different, much simplified tyre model compared to a human player. When the AI yields control to the player at the end of the pit lane, the tyre parameters from the stop need to be set up in the STM and the collision mesh. I haven't read up on the details on whether it is a collision issue in the physics or if it is a tyre pressure issue.

But yes, super annoying bug. :/

 

[SwaggerJacker]

I think I saw that bug reported on the official forums too. Was it SP or MP? Career? QRW? I haven't seen it myself so far, but not doubting you just did. The AI uses a different, much simplified tyre model compared to a human player. When the AI yields control to the player at the end of the pit lane, the tyre parameters from the stop need to be set up in the STM and the collision mesh. I haven't read up on the details on whether it is a collision issue in the physics or if it is a tyre pressure issue.

But yes, super annoying bug. :/

It's three years. That's what it is. Multiplayer. I don't play Career mode, the game is too wonky to attempt such a massive undertaking. The latest patch was supposed to have fixed it.Career? I can't even get through one race.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

Why do you think the modders were shown the door so quickly. ...could it be they had the knowledge to spot the get rich scheme a mile away?

I think you nailed it Bro. A get rich quick scheme. Bravo to them. It worked. I'm only out 50 bones, and I do have a game that works sometimes. I have spent much more on consumables in a single night, to which I must inevitably give back in one form or another.

Swagg

 

[ermo]

I understand that people are frustrated by the bugs. What I don't understand is why people keep asserting that the bugs are an indicator of malicious intent.

As I have touched on previously, I haven't seen this malice in play when engaging with the developers at SMS. On the contrary, I have seen capable developers who listened to me, commented, took suggestions onboard, explained how their development processes and engine work, how they liked a feature/change I suggested or why a feature I suggested would not be practical to implement.

I have studied Computer Science, worked as a Network and IT specialist supporting developers and I have taken part in various development processes both professionally and as a hobbyist. So I like to think that I have at least a reasonable understanding of what it takes to develop and debug a product with various features. From a WMD perspective, the developers were as professional as any I've met and their responses have been consistent in quality with the developers I've worked with online (in an Open Source context) and those I've met and worked with in person. And I'd like to think that I'm fairly discerning when it comes to judging quality.

So with that perspective, I trust the developers at SMS.

HOWEVER, if my only perspective was as an early adopter customer with no prior experience in software development, I'd be wondering what was going on too -- just as some of you wonder what is going on. You are judging the product on its current performance; as well you should. In contrast, I'm judging the product with a view to both its development history, its current state and its future potential given my dealings with those tasked with delivering said potential. And perhaps that is the cause of the apparent disconnect some here are commenting on.

Be that as it may, I have stated my case and the rest is up to SMS. Fingers crossed.

 

[Andy_J]

In contrast, I'm judging the product with a view to both its development history, its current state and its future potential given my dealings with those tasked with delivering said potential. And perhaps that is the cause of the apparent disconnect some here are commenting on.

I think the general feeling here is that it wont get said potential delivered. Bugs get fixed but cause other bugs that truly are game spoiling bugs. And finally it is not the be all and super race sim every one expected. At best it's great for hot lapping and making video's with.
Don't get me wrong, I love the MP aspect of this game and truly hope that all bugs are ironed out soon but there is no way on this planet that pay DLC should be released until these bugs are ironed out.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I think the general feeling here is that it wont get said potential delivered.

I don't feel the same at all. Sure there are still some massive online bugs to iron out and if there are 40 devs working on it there is no reason why these errors shouldn't be addressed in the next patch.

If those are fixed online at least will no longer cause (me) a headache.

 

[Andy_J]

I don't feel the same at all. Sure there are still some massive online bugs to iron out and if there are 40 devs working on it there is no reason why these errors shouldn't be addressed in the next patch.

If those are fixed online at least will no longer cause (me) a headache.

Good for you Bram. Glad someone has some confidence. But I really think they are not concerned because they don't think there are any more MP bugs.
Glad to be proved wrong of course.

 

[ermo]

Good for you Bram. Glad someone has some confidence. But I really think they are not concerned because they don't think there are any more MP bugs.
Glad to be proved wrong of course.

Does this qualify as evidence?

(in the context of the thread titled "Serious-pitstop-issues")

#9: We are looking for a reliable repro for this bug. Are you able to reproduce it every time? If so, what are the settings in your Superkart pit strategy? Does it happen in Offline races / practice sessions or must you be Online?

#12: That would be useful, thanks. Additional videos/screenshots will help also, of your car setup, pit strategy settings, and of the pit strategy selection screen. Any info how to repro in basic steps would be great. Meanwhile, we continue to try to make it happen here.

#14: Hi, sorry for not clarifying, I need feedback from patch 2 players at this time. However there might still be something useful here; are you saying you need to be playing an online race?

(source: #9, #12, #14)

 

[ermo]

@Bram Hengeveld:

For some reason I lost access to the nuanced (informative etc.) like icons. I'm on FF 38.0.5 on Linux -- should I consider it a local issue or was it disabled in the forum settings or something like that? Thanks

EDIT: Ok, found your post on the subject.

 

[AndrewBo]

@ermo
Info about Icons/Emicons is in here.

 

[Andy_J]

Does this qualify as evidence?

Yes but I still remember this from a few weeks ago:
Project Cars Forum Moderators Banning Customers!

This is what Ian Bell stated:
"There are issues and there are customer preferences. These are two very different things. The only online issues I'm seeing are complaints about wreckers. This we're on yes. In the mean time, you can always set up a private room."

 

[ermo]

Yes but I still remember this from a few weeks ago:
Project Cars Forum Moderators Banning Customers!

This is what Ian Bell stated:
"There are issues and there are customer preferences. These are two very different things. The only online issues I'm seeing are complaints about wreckers. This we're on yes. In the mean time, you can always set up a private room."

Read down another three posts in that thread for this:

Yes that's in the bug list to be fixed also. {in reference to the 'Drive' button being greyed out in MP /ermo}

Anyway, it's already turned antagonistic in here. It's a shame as I'd really like to be able to engage with the users everywhere without this underlying animosity.

 

[Andy_J]

Read down another three posts in that thread for this:

He was only referring to the greyed out drive button though Ermo.

 

[ermo]

He acknowledged an MP bug, correcting and superceeding his earlier statement with the one I quoted.

On the pCARS official forum, he has since acknowledged a multitude of issues and asked the moderators to put them on the bug list. I also get the sense that he, though he may not personally have seen all the issues that are reported, is making a major effort to acknowledge them and triage them so that the appropriate people can reproduce and subsequently fix them.

Just to give you an idea of what it looks like when Ian acknowledges a missing feature:

Was wondering if theres only meant to be one lone pit guy ? "xbox one"Kind of kills the immersion of a pit stop. Game has huge potential.

It's coming. The issue is that each car has wheels and refuelling points in different places. I think we underestimated the amount of work and variation involved in comparison to say a single make racing game.

That's not to say we aren't doing it. We are. But I suspect we might have to admit defeat with DLC cars or they'll be delayed too much.

(source)

Later in that thread Ian gets annoyed with another customer and bites back. Note that this only happens after 3 (4 if you count the one I quoted) polite and informative answers from Ian's side and that nobody was banned or infracted.

Also note that what I opined earlier in the thread about SMS underestimating the amount of time needed to deliver features aligns perfectly with the above quote.

If none of the above satisfies you, then OK. Though I would argue that a reasonable observer would concede that I have provided you with clear, factual evidence that runs contrary to your original assertion that SMS don't think there are any bugs and don't concern themselves with the bugs people report.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

This could go on and on and on. ermo, how exactly are you affiliated with SMS? Are you an investor, or an employee. I thought investor, but I'm not sure, and don't care to read back.