PC1 Let's kill one of the biggest misconception about WMD

[c172fccc]

A misconception so big that SMS and many WMD members are getting wrong.

"Project CARS was tested by 80 000 people"

Yeah, let's kill that one.

1. Where does this miconception come from?

On wmdportal, at the bottom, it is written

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2. Why is it wrong?

It isn't wrong, it is very true. The problem is that free members and people with multiple account (I'll talk about this) are included in that count.

3. So how do we count how many are paid account than?

The answer is in the face of everyone.

This:

Let's do some math.
A Junior account is 10€, Team Member is 25€, Full Member is 50€, Manager is 1000€ and Senior Manager is 25000€.

88180/10 = 8818
255025/25 = 10201
380315/50 = 7606,3 (it doesn't work for some reasons)
158300/100 = 1583
486805/1000 = 486,805 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
887030/25000 = 35,4812 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
For a total of 28 731 members, and that's just the maximum.

4.Why is it the maximum?

What if you wanted to put more than 100€, but 1000€ was too much? It's easy, you just had to buy another account.

What if you wanted to put more than 1000€, but 25 000€ is too much? Managers could have a multiplier. You could be Manage (x1.75), for example.

What if you wanted to put more than 25 000€? Senior Manager could also have a multiplier.

I doubt there was more than 20 000 different people.

5. So that's it, there was approximately 20 000 people testing the game?

Not really. Some of these people never really tried the game for many reasons. Some people didn't have a proper pc to play the game, some people were just waiting for the final game, some people were here only for the money, ect.

And that's not all. Testing the game is nothing if you are not reporting. If you had a crash, you had to go on the forum to post them, nothing was automatic. Same thing for bugs, you had to report them.

I counted some times ago that there was exactly 9697 members with at least 1 post on the forum and most of them probably didn't ever post proper feedback. Also don't forget that people that only reported things 4 years ago are included in this count.


In conclusion, SMS, WMD Members and everyone, stop saying that there was 80 000 testers. Say more than 20 000 testers, and you're still wrong. Say more than 20 000 backers and you might be right.

 

[c172fccc]

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[Ole Marius Myrvold]

The thing is, while you have, without a doubt proved that there has never been 80k testers, there is still some things...

1. You made this post here, as a response to a comment on a blog.
2. Still, with, say 20k testers, or 8k testers, it is still a insane number compared to traditional games.

The second point here is vital. While you have proved that 80k is wrong, and that it might just be 10% of those that actually were testing the game. It still doesn't change that the game had a lot more testing, from a huge pool of players, and still launched with tonnes of bugs.

So, while your intention might've been to just "clear it up". The only thing you end up doing is showing that they still much more testers, and testing than usual for games, just not the amount SMS claim themselves.

 

[c172fccc]

1. You made this post here, as a response to a comment on a blog.

Not completly, I tought some people would also have like to "know the truth" here.

2. Still, with, say 20k testers, or 8k testers, it is still a insane number compared to traditional games.

The second point here is vital. While you have proved that 80k is wrong, and that it might just be 10% of those that actually were testing the game. It still doesn't change that the game had a lot more testing, from a huge pool of players, and still launched with tonnes of bugs.

So, while your intention might've been to just "clear it up". The only thing you end up doing is showing that they still much more testers, and testing than usual for games, just not the amount SMS claim themselves.

I know that we were still much more testers than usual. As I said a million time, I was not excusing the bugs.

 

[c172fccc]

If SMS didn't listen to the feedback dedicated testers have given with regards to bugs you didn't push enough. If people really cared about quality of the end product you would have fought for it. If SMS didn't listen to the feedback dedicated testers have given with regards to bugs you didn't push enough.

That <mod-edit: No need for swearing> is insulting Bram. You are blamming the bugs on people that actually help the game and not those who made the game, are you serious? If that is the way you're thinking, where is the hate against WMD Members that were totally useless? There are some here and I'm sure some of them liked your post. I'm eagerly waiting for your thread called "Inactive WMD Member should feel ashamed". Oh, and don't forget to blame internal testers at Microsoft and Sony.

Come on now, we were there to help making the game, not controlling SMS. They had experience, they were those that should know when to fix it. And if you want know, I did push SMS to fix some bugs (and if you want to know, the few bugs I pushed to be fixed , none were fix for the release). SMS had they own internal priorities and some bugs just refused to be fix and some fix were adding new one (you can actually all see that with every patch so far). When there are bugs everywhere, that's what happen. I call it unstable, you call it buggy/broken. Another thing that you could blame the bugs on are the promises. There were a limit of what they could do with a limited amount of money and time. That made us ask for featured that were still not there. That was really not helping the bug fixing.

I believe SMS have learned a lot from their mistakes. I predict a bright future for pCARS 2, but let's wait and see.

How a community assisted multiplatform game that has been in development for over three years with a team of 100 to 140 employees got funded by only 3.7 million euros.

No publisher and big shadow investors that actually determined the path this game went right?

There was more money for sure. I believe Bandai Namco did help for this, however no they didn't determined the path, not at all.

The problem wasn´t "there was not enough feedback", the problem was the treatment given to negative feedback and the level of <mod-edit: removed lanaguage from quote> given by SMS about the feedback these guys gathered and were allowed to voice.

There is no negative proper feedback. Those who had a bad treatment were those that didn't give proper feedback. WMD was meant to be an office. If there was something you didn't like, you had to say it properly. You had to say "I don't like this because (...)", not "this is bad, you need better devs" (yes I've actually seen a post these kind of posts, and they are usually those who cries that they have been banned for nothing)

(obviously this only applies to those who it applies to.)

Indeed, as you are an investor yourself.

 

[c172fccc]

<mod-edit: No need for swearing>

Sorry, I tought censoring every letters except one was ok and I didn't find a better word.

 

[Lorenzo Bonder]

Censoring or not that's a violation of the forum rules.

Stating the terms of service:
"The staff retain the right to edit/remove content posted by any user if the content is against the rules and can add warnings, or if necessary ban users. For more information on why a post was edited/removed, please contact a member of the staff team."

Swearing or using foul lanaguage in the forums is a breach of the rules. So if a moderator sees the use of language, censored or not, it's his or hers choice to remove it.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

Look, it's very simple laws of physics. There's action and reaction. (Next you're going to say what? For every argument there is an equal and opposite argument?) One person spews vile poison which needs ( And it's your duty to oblige?)to be countered. Hence as long as somebody keeps turning every thread into poison somebody needs to out that person.( Again, your duty?)

I can't help you for not seeing it my way, nor do you have to. Keep in mind that I enjoy and play many of the other established simulators. I was one of the few at the iRacing forums defending Assetto Corsa from similar vile poison that was going on there at the iRacing forums. There needs to be people who out all the BS.

As for "defending" Project CARS.. no I'm not. It's very obvious that you do not know me. If you happen to be part of WMD or know somebody who has access then all you need to do is to search for my name there. I am one of those HIGHLY CRITICAL (no surprise) people over there. I've raised red flags about NUMEROUS issues over the years.. up until the very end. This is why I keep saying that I am LITERALLY living proof for people not getting randomly banned nor harassed by the developers. (You're too entertaining, in a cute angry clown ranting kinda way to ever be banned)

What I do NOT tolerate is obvious poison. Posts written with a single goal in mind.. to make everything look worse than it is. I'm also very much against writing down right lies and twisting the truth to your own benefit.. I'm also not afraid of admitting when I am wrong (I have been wrong many times of course). Self awareness. I like it.

Basically I'd like the community to calm the <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.> and realize that this is just a friggin game. Hello pot, have you seen Mr. Kettle?. one of many. I try to remind people that we live at an all-time high when it comes to sim-racing. There has never been a better time to be a simracer, yet the community is infested with whiny little brats all over the place.(Whiny nannies too!) Considering the average age of us simracers it is completely inexcusable. Why on earth is there so much bickering going on? (Sweet Mother of Chicken! Forget about the self awareness comment.)The level of entitlement is horrendous..

Yes the game has some severe issues. Yes SMS broke some "promises" (note how I put it in " " because it is THEIR game.. they can do whatever the <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.>want as they own the IP and did all the work.(This bmanic, just may be your "best" line yet. "We" purchased the game, therefore it is "OUR" game too. So actually, "we" can say whatever "we" want. "We" own it. BTW they're called "quotation marks") We can complain a bit but it doesn't give us any right to be whiny little brats about it all!).(So now you're the complaint police as well?) Yes the advertising is over the top (but so is every other single game and sim.. if you can't see that then you are blind). Basically everything about the marketing and release of the game is exactly on par with the status quo. Deal with it and try not to be a douche about it. (Remember the self awareness thingy?)Vote with your wallet and then leave it at that.

I just have a hard time understanding the mentality of the crazy fringe who go mental about a game and actively seek out to poison the community. Yes I know these kind of people are among us in society as well but it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight these people. Stand up to them, scrutinize what they are saying and implying. Politely at first, like in real life, but if they can't seem to understand how utterly disruptive they are then <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.>. A child only learns to grow up as a decent human being if there is a good mix of love and discipline involved. Nothing different here.

I have absolutely NOTHING against Bram as a person. I don't even know him. I even respect him for running a website that has the potential of being great but I am NOT going to stand his <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.> and spreading of negativity and poison, not without outing it. I'm still don't understand what he has to gain from it.. or what any of you other people who spew vile poison have to gain from it. It is completely foreign to me.(Yes, that and a few other things) Know this: I don't hate the person. I don't disrespect the person. I disrespect and fight against what they say, imply or stand for. That might sound contradicting to some of you but then so be it.

Some people need a crusade to validate who they are. You crusade because you love to argue, curse, insult, harass and be heard. You do it under the guise of righteousness, and you may even believe that. You most certainly validate a lot about yourself; I'll give you that. Obviously, what you're trying to do is get this thread closed. That is your ultimate goal.

 

[Andy_J]

Indeed, as you are an investor yourself.

C172.fc.1 or whatever your name is (just another loud mouth hiding behind anonymity ), as usual along with all the other utter rubbish you are espousing, you are wrong as usual.

I am an avid reader on WMD, but not an investor. And guess what, I don't hide behind a silly made up name on there either.

And as for this thread, well it was obvious that it was an attempt to stir trouble, a bit like when Bmaniac comes on. It's almost like a coordinated plan from WMD/SMS HQ.

You lot accuse Bram of an agenda when in reality, the agenda is clearly yours.

 

[ermo]

I was writing what I felt was a long, considered reply relevant to the discussion of how many of the WMD members actually tested pCARS and how many of those were capable of giving structured, professional (respectful, reasonable, balanced) feedback and feature suggestions versus how many were merely capable of opining in a manner wholly inappropriate for the virtual office.

But then it occurred to me that the only thing that matters anymore is the product, not the process and not the people driving said process.

Reading the public forums, it is clear that Project CARS is not yet quite up to the standard it aimed for in certain areas. Some of it is great, some of it clearly not so great. And I realized that until all planned features are delivered and servicable, any further discussion about the how and the why will be met with healthy skepticism and be seen as nothing but excuses.

I believe SMS will deliver. Some don't. Time will tell, as always.

See you on the other side gentlemen.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

I was writing what I felt was a long, considered reply relevant to the discussion of how many of the WMD members actually tested pCARS and how many of those were capable of giving structured, professional (respectful, reasonable, balanced) feedback and feature suggestions versus how many were merely capable of opining in a manner wholly inappropriate for the virtual office.

But then it occurred to me that the only thing that matters anymore is the product, not the process and not the people driving said process.

Reading the public forums, it is clear that Project CARS is not yet quite up to the standard it aimed for in certain areas. Some of it is great, some of it clearly not so great. And I realized that until all planned features are delivered and servicable, any further discussion about the how and the why will be met with healthy skepticism and be seen as nothing but excuses.

I believe SMS will deliver. Some don't. Time will tell, as always.

See you on the other side gentlemen.

I guess I could be considered a Pcars detractor, however, I am on record as saying it is the most fun I've ever had racing online, perhaps period. My gripe is that for a supposedly finished game, it falls short in many ways. I'm still getting floating cameras 20 ft in the air in cockpit view, game still crashes, some cars don't show up in replay, unable to drive in MP games at times (hit or miss there), unless I join while players are in the lobby. Setups and saving them is still arcane, livery keeps changing, getting stuck in bumper cam view, replay is still severely lacking, ( akin to watching a movie on betamax) etc. Then Pcars II is introduced amid a firestorm of arguments and insults. It's like buying a baby, and birthing a pram. Sorta makes you say, huh?

Swagg

 

[ermo]

↑ rated informative insofar as it outlines your reasons for being skeptical. Reminds me of Ole's perspective actually.

Do you feel that the above is a view shared by those who are skeptical about the motives of SMS here at RD?

I ask because I see nothing controversial about your perspective as outlined above. I've seen several people comment along similar lines on the public forum, in fact.

If that is indeed the case, I can see why it might not fly when someone comes along and tells you that you clearly have an agenda, if all you really want is to get to enjoy pCARS sans the current frustration due to bugs.

Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Come on now, we were there to help making the game, not controlling SMS.

Not sure why you feel offended again, but I have a different opinion. Which you can happily ignore, I don't care.

If you were helping to make a game I can't understand why such huge bugs are still in the game. Spotted most of them with 15 minutes of playing online.

Some people have been playing this game for years and years with daily builds and didn't spot these errors? Or did they spot them, reported them and when they weren't fixed didn't care anymore to row against the stream?

I don't get it. You obviously do, so lets agree we disagree.

I find it poor quality assurance on all levels. SMS, WMD, Publisher Distributor and QA teams.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

There was more money for sure. I believe Bandai Namco did help for this, however no they didn't determined the path, not at all.

You want me to show you some screenshots, quotes stating otherwise? For months we had to hear this game was developed with a minimal budget by a small team ( ) without the help of a publisher.

You also remember the numerous of posts where EA was portrayed as the devil for the shift series and therefore a publisher was left out for pCars.

Funny to read now the cash cow is walking in at WMD Bandai Namco all of a sudden is being thanked as the publisher.

But lets not start a new discussion again about it as you know..... agenda.

Going to enjoy the sun, the BritishGP and the TdF instead.

 

[c172fccc]

C172.fc.1 or whatever your name is (just another loud mouth hiding behind anonymity ), as usual along with all the other utter rubbish you are espousing, you are wrong as usual.

I am an avid reader on WMD, but not an investor. And guess what, I don't hide behind a silly made up name on there either.

And as for this thread, well it was obvious that it was an attempt to stir trouble, a bit like when Bmaniac comes on. It's almost like a coordinated plan from WMD/SMS HQ.

You lot accuse Bram of an agenda when in reality, the agenda is clearly yours.

Omg, haha, you guys love to attack for nothing. By saying that you were an investor, I was just saying that you were a WMD member, that's what I tought you were saying.

I have my real name on the pCARS 2 forum if you wanna know.

It wasn't an attempt to stir trouble. What do I have to do to prove it?

 

[c172fccc]

Censoring or not that's a violation of the forum rules.

Stating the terms of service:
"The staff retain the right to edit/remove content posted by any user if the content is against the rules and can add warnings, or if necessary ban users. For more information on why a post was edited/removed, please contact a member of the staff team."

Swearing or using foul lanaguage in the forums is a breach of the rules. So if a moderator sees the use of language, censored or not, it's his or hers choice to remove it.

Not sure why you're telling me that. I know that they are allowed to edit my post.

 

[c172fccc]

For months we had to hear this game was developed with a minimal budget by a small team ( ) without the help of a publisher.

Everything was and still is true if you compare it to Turn10 and Poliphony.

You also remember the numerous of posts where EA was portrayed as the devil for the shift series and therefore a publisher was left out for pCars.

Funny to read now the cash cow is walking in at WMD Bandai Namco all of a sudden is being thanked as the publisher.

EA decided the path. Bandai Namco didn't as they were the distributor. The fact that they put money or not doesn't change anything.

Going to enjoy the sun, the BritishGP and the TdF instead.

Have fun!

 

[Martin Kushlewskyj]

I doubt the game was tested at all.

 

[c172fccc]

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[ML2166]

I really really do need to say something, but unfortunately it can not be put into eloquent enough wording.

If I did actually say it, well I can hear the very loud sound of a swooshing ban hammer heading in my direction.

 

[ermo]

@c172fccc

Please, don't stoop to that level. Walking the road to proper discourse implies leaving the trenches behind.

Also, Bram is required to do absolutely nothing re. Project CARS.

We WMD members did what we could to help, but in the end the product is now SMS' responsibility and they made it very clear that they had the final say in various decisions during development. Thus, things now get triaged, prioritized and fixed per their internal decisions with appropriate feedback taken into account. End of story.