Cars ISO CART 1987 INDYCAR WORLD SERIES 1.6

[Richard Wilks]

Richard Wilks submitted a new resource:

HSO CART 1988 INDYCAR WORLD SERIES - The legendary 1987 CART mod makes it's way to AMS!

One of the best rf1 mods makes it's way to AMS! Totally revamped, reworked physics, tweaked sounds and graphics, and making use of all AMS's new features, such as proper turbo implementation or flatspots.

Using real data, extensibly researched, tested and worked on, this mod is quite possibly the ultimate simulation of...

Read more about this resource...

 

[Richard Wilks]

You have to LIFT in every gear change.

 

[ClimaxF1]

You have to LIFT in every gear change.

I use auto shifting a lot when testing mods to look at the textures I'm working on to see what I'm doing and sometimes forget to switch it off.

I noticed a lot of your cars don't shift at all or they bounce up and down.

Normally I race manual but there are many who still opt for auto and Reiza cars or other mods all work fine.

 

[MANashTTU]

Beautiful mod. I think some of the gear changing issues is that not only do we have to adjust to lifting and clutching on upshifts and downshifts, but this mod in particular takes extra time to shift. Using an h-shifter, there is a considerable delay from physically engaging the next or lower gear and it actually registering with the virtual car. This is compared to other h-shifter cars in the sim like the F1 Classic. My question is this---is the extra delay there for added realism, or might it be modified/reduced to be more similar to stock content and other mods (like Patrick's 911 RSR '74 mod)? If the delay is purposeful for ultimate realism, we just need to learn to drive the car or turn on auto-clutch.

Certainly we can row a TH8A faster than most real manuals. As the mod is currently, one has to deliberately engage clutch, shift gear, pause, pause, lift clutch. On downshifts, it is engage clutch, shift gear, pause, pause, blip, lift clutch. It ain't easy to time those pauses just right while trying to drive fast.

 

[MANashTTU]

Beautiful mod. I think some of the gear changing issues is that not only do we have to adjust to lifting and clutching on upshifts and downshifts, but this mod in particular takes extra time to shift. Using an h-shifter, there is a considerable delay from physically engaging the next or lower gear and it actually registering with the virtual car. This is compared to other h-shifter cars in the sim like the F1 Classic. My question is this---is the extra delay there for added realism, or might it be modified/reduced to be more similar to stock content and other mods (like Patrick's 911 RSR '74 mod)? If the delay is purposeful for ultimate realism, we just need to learn to drive the car or turn on auto-clutch.

Certainly we can row a TH8A faster than most real manuals. As the mod is currently, one has to deliberately engage clutch, shift gear, pause, pause, lift clutch. On downshifts, it is engage clutch, shift gear, pause, pause, blip, lift clutch. It ain't easy to time those pauses just right while trying to drive fast.

EDIT: It actually seems like on downshifts the car is demanding a double clutch, which is a thing in real life. But damn . . . that's a tough new skill to master if that's a purposeful requirement of the mod.

 

[Richard Wilks]

You don't need to double clutch, you might not even need the clutch at all, you just need to time it right, just like a true dogbox. The delay is there on purppose, you can't just shove gears in a dogbox at your will. But i can assure you that myself and other people can shift quite quick with it without missing gears. But yes, you need to time it right.

 

[MANashTTU]

Thanks, Richard. Guess that means it's time to practice, practice, practice. One of the many great things about this sim . . . never gets boring because there is always a new skill to learn or old skill to improve.

 

[ClimaxF1]

@GPL What is there to disagree about, I'm quite interested.

I'm not too keen on auto shifting but I know many who still use controllers or auto shifting unless you have different stats then there's nothing to disagree about.

Not everybody is a hardcore sim racer and the gear shifting has being also brought up with other mods.

You will not find any of these problems with Reiza cars or other mods.

Getting the gears right in all game settings should be the basics of any good conversion.

 

[Richard Wilks]

@GPL What is there to disagree about, I'm quite interested.

I'm not too keen on auto shifting but I know many who still use controllers or auto shifting unless you have different stats then there's nothing to disagree about.

Not everybody is a hardcore sim racer and the gear shifting has being also brought up with other mods.

You will not find any of these problems with Reiza cars or other mods.

Getting the gears right in all game settings should be the basics of any good conversion.

I didn't just converted the mod. I MADE the physics of the mod, both the original and these ones. The gears were a choice i made for added realism. You just need to lift your foot/thumb when you chenge gear. There is no science behind it.

 

[ClimaxF1]

I didn't just converted the mod. I MADE the physics of the mod, both the original and these ones. The gears were a choice i made for added realism. You just need to lift your foot/thumb when you chenge gear. There is no science behind it.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me.

I don't have a problem with the wheel and manual shifting but I do use a controller with auto shifting when working with textures for my mods and noticed that the car does not allow for this.

Something that I have not noticed with any other car.

Was just thinking if there are those out who race full auto then this mod does not allow for it.

To me it's no biggy, would rather see some improvements to the tire model and interior if that's possible.

 

[roby13]

Outstanding work! Thx Richard!

 

[Aaron Markham]

Excellent work! I've been waiting for this conversion since the original mod was released. One suggestion. In the Opponent selection list would there be a way to put the number of opponents next to each round so we know how many AI drivers to select & avoid having duplicate drivers in the race?

 

[NBH]

Excellent work! I've been waiting for this conversion since the original mod was released. One suggestion. In the Opponent selection list would there be a way to put the number of opponents next to each round so we know how many AI drivers to select & avoid having duplicate drivers in the race?
View attachment 287263

I like this idea

 

[wavespeed]

I didn't just converted the mod. I MADE the physics of the mod, both the original and these ones. The gears were a choice i made for added realism. You just need to lift your foot/thumb when you chenge gear. There is no science behind it.

And could you tell us the file and the parameter so we could try change this delay time?

 

[TomK]

This is certainly one of the most interesting mods there is for AMS, but aren't the turbo boost pressures too high currently?

The CART engine rules had a limit for absolute maximum intake manifold pressure, not relative boost pressure. In 1988 the maximum intake manifold pressure was 45 inches of mercury, about 1.52 bar. Additionally, at the Indy 500 the USAC rules permitted stock block pushrod engines to have an inlet pressure of 55 inHg, about 1.86 bar. In the mod the boost limits are 1.5 bar and 1.9 bar. If we assume an atmospheric pressure of 1.0 bar, that would mean maximum intake manifold pressures of 2.5 bar and 2.9 bar, approximately 74.0 inHg and 85.9 inHg. Maybe 0.5 and 0.8 would be more appropriate boost limits? In that case, the engine torque figures should also be adjusted, they are quite low at the moment.

 

[Richard Wilks]

No, the torque curves and the engine curves are just right, they are based on reizas own numbers, as well as our own investigation of how turbo works in the game. You don't usually account for the atmo pressure when you talk about it in cars.

 

[Stingraymx]

Great mod....where do i get the tracks from to match the Rd1 to Rd14?. I dont see any tracks in the download itself...thx

 

[TomK]

No, the torque curves and the engine curves are just right, they are based on reizas own numbers, as well as our own investigation of how turbo works in the game. You don't usually account for the atmo pressure when you talk about it in cars.

I couldn't find the official 1988 CART technical regulations on the net, but here are the 1998 engine rules when the intake pressure limit was 40 inHg.

9.5.4A.1. The allowable intake manifold pressure shall be limited to a maximum pressure of forty (40) inches of mercury absolute.

This is from Popular Mechanics May 1989. About the Chevy/Ilmor engine they say:

The compression ratio is 11:1, supplemented by the rules-limited maximum turbocharger boost of 7.4 psi above atmospheric pressure (45 inHg).

Regarding torque curves, the Cosworth DFX was developed from the Cosworth DFV with a slightly smaller displacement and a turbocharger. The torque figures of the DFX at atmospheric pressure should not be that much lower compared to the DFV as they are in this mod currently. And indeed, if the manifold pressure really were 2.5 bar, a 2.65 litre engine at 11800 rpm would obviously produce much more than the announced 720 hp. Of course, the real manifold pressure was about 1.5 bar.

Please, take a look at the CART Extreme mod. It is about the 1998 CART season, but the makers of that mod had inside knowledge of the Reiza turbo model; just look who made the physics. Examining the engine files in that mod could be helpful.

 

[Richard Wilks]

I couldn't find the official 1988 CART technical regulations on the net, but here are the 1998 engine rules when the intake pressure limit was 40 inHg.


This is from Popular Mechanics May 1989. About the Chevy/Ilmor engine they say:


Regarding torque curves, the Cosworth DFX was developed from the Cosworth DFV with a slightly smaller displacement and a turbocharger. The torque figures of the DFX at atmospheric pressure should not be that much lower compared to the DFV as they are in this mod currently. And indeed, if the manifold pressure really were 2.5 bar, a 2.65 litre engine at 11800 rpm would obviously produce much more than the announced 720 hp. Of course, the real manifold pressure was about 1.5 bar.

Please, take a look at the CART Extreme mod. It is about the 1998 CART season, but the makers of that mod had inside knowledge of the Reiza turbo model; just look who made the physics. Examining the engine files in that mod could be helpful.

The cosworth DFX was a low compression ratio version of the DFV, with many modifications. Why would it have the same torque curve as a DFV? And even if it did, one thing is reality, another is how the game treats those numbers. Reiza's turbo implementation leaves a bit to be desired unfortunally.

You are being obsessed with numbers here. i tested all variants in game, and these are the numbers that better reflect not only the beheviour of the engine, but the real power and torque figures. You mention the CART Extreme mod, you are aware there is a patch for it in this very website that changes those numbers.


I can manipulate the turbo values, input shaft torque, turbo efficiency, etc etc in game. The number you see in the garage is meaningless and can represent almost anything in any scale i want.

Look at the discrepancy between the Formula classic numbers, and the cart Extreme numbers in the engine files. Even the game iself is confused, quoting more than 1000 HP for the F classic car, with just 1.5 bar of boost according to the garage.

I did use your reasoning on another mod i am working on, but honestly, i like more the results i obtained in cart88, regarding turbo lag and how boost affects fuel use.

 

[TomK]

The DFX and the DFV had quite similar compression ratios. The DFX used methanol as fuel and so could have a high compression ratio even with a turbocharger. The DFX did not have the same torque curve as the DFV, but it did not have over 25% less torque either.

I am aware of that patch for the CART Extreme. The maker of that patch did the same mistake: he didn't realize the difference between the intake manifold pressure in the rules and the boost pressure in the turbo model. I guess he thought that the boost pressure was too low, he increased it, found out that the engine power was now too high, and then reduced the torque numbers to get back to realistic power figures. That patch did not solve a problem, it created one. The mistake is easy to make though; misconceptions about turbo pressure rules have been very popular for decades, probably for as long as they have existed in motorsports.

The Formula Classic bug, where it shows over 1300 hp in the showroom, is an old bug that is unfortunately still there. When the turbo model was in beta testing, the boost was put to 4.0 bar, just for fun. That high power figure in the showroom comes from that boost setting. In the release version the boost was lowered to 1.5 bar as to comply with the 1988 F1 regulations, but they forgot to change the power figure in the showroom. It is annoying, but it is only incorrect information in the showroom and on the loading screen, it does not affect physics in any way.