Impressions on driving after 1.3

[Matheus Machado]

AC just gone wrong with what made it stand out in the crowd: FFB.
All the details are gone, now it just feels like a slightly improvement on GSCE ffb.
Also, they mentioned the new tire model would cause LESS understeer on GT cars. Well, at least for me it works, until the car hits 100 kph where at some point it just magically starts to go straight, without a single tip or notice that it's going to happen.
At least to me, it is a huge stepback from what they have done so far.

PS: I would like to know if anyone is able to match GT2 pace around spa, where in WEC qualy this year, drivers were putting high 2:16s to low 2:17s

 

[Msportdan]

@bmanic

I wanted to get this off my chest before I sat down for dinner.
I for one am totally with you in regards to sims not having to be ultra difficult to be like real life. One debate atm is the Dirt rally and RBR comparison. Was RBR too hard or is DR more near with further adjustment, to reallife?

I discovered this on a experience I had in a formula Renault open wheeler (f2 looking) this year. I was absolutely petrified of breaking this thing in the tyre walls. Although it was a small track so us civilians wouldn't end up killing ourselves, the speed and grip this thing had astonished me. Although I wasn't at the cars peak, in my limited actual race experience, I was probably near mine and my fear. I was so worried about spinning, but to my surprise it had sooo much grip even at lower speeds *something ISI sims struggle with pre rf2 CPM*. I was really able to put loads of confidence in my ability to push this thing, It broke on a dime and went like a rocket. I ocked up my brakes once and wet straight on at a hairpin. I was getting bit to ambitious with my braking zone lol

But the things that affect you which you don't sense in sims is the bodily forces while trying to drive on the edge of my limit. This could in fact make sims seem easier than real life because your nt battling these forces also at work on your body and arms. Put it this way I ached to hell when I got out, its so cramped and you pretty much rub everything when going around corners at ridiculous speeds.

So yeah I when I got out I did think these things aren't hard to drive, but when your racing with 20 guys around you and the forces at play on your body,thats when it gets hard.

having said that, I think AC does some "feeling " well, but at the limit when I think most racing drivers would of lost the car and be off, a bit of counter steer and mindful lregulation of the gas and your back on track. It just seems a bit too easy. maybe 4/10 times a driver can recover, but in ac it feels more like 8/10 times.

Theres just this niggle that bothers me, and therefore I lose that edge of driving on the edge because I know most probably I can recover the car.

but okay its probably not forza, but I do think it more near the sim end to pcars. That's not a bad thing I just don't think its as authentic as rf2.

 

[Arne Dopudja]

I commend your pondering, Msportdan.

I think cars are easy to drive, and if racedrivers would not feel the forces and thus result in no fatigue they would catch 8/10 slides because they would be focused on what we are as simracers.

But making the game behave in such a way that only 4/10 slides can be saved is wrong.

Thats why I say that pcars is good enough. It is a bit floaty, but the general handling is present and believable. AC has more of that weight transfer sharpness which makes it even better.
Driving a car is easy, pushing it to the limit is harder, but pushing it to the limit while youre sitting in it, body moving, hands aching, eyes vibrating and the temperature being 50°C while 5 guys are scraping your paint... thats another matter.

 

[W_Akira]

@Msportdan
In my opinion its not that big deal, being easy to recover may cause less frustration when someone hits you on a race. Its not real, but a choice in game design.
Many people cast stones on iRacing prior to this season, when recovering from a spin was nearly impossible. This and the points you lose in irating may reproduce the fear factor to loose control in real life, but isn't fun at all.
I prefer to have a "real" feeling when driving and maybe not so real when lose control of the car, then have the behavior of the car more arcade to fit a broader audience. As to be fast you shouldn't lost control, its not that bad.
When they announced Assetto for consoles, was really bad news for me, so I hope they don't mess the hole experience.
Maybe if PCars was PC only, it would turn out to be a better sim.

 

[Glaurung]

@Reik Major what nonsense are you on about, do lap times even matter <e-sarcasm>

I dont usually post in these threads but I will since there might be an audience of simracers like me.

Initial impression are good, even great so far regarding the new content since I've only been able to race a few hours to the discontent of my gf. For the ones that race in our racing club this patch is an excellent addition but for one small gripe. That is "-GT3 performance balancing", which now with two new cars thrown into the mix (not the SCG since that is somewhere in the middle of gt2/3) doesn't seem quite so balanced. The Huracan is on GT2 levels of pace, the car communicates beautifully once on song and so far has been a joy to drive.

There seems to be an improvement in sounds as well, bonnet, in car and outside/trackside the cars sound better than they did, ofcourse the new ones sound stunning. Can't wait to see what some of the sound mod gurus will do with some added sampling @Fonsecker.

On to the meat and potaters, the new tires/physics. I have no Idea what it's like to drive one of these GT3 monsters, I can only 'speculate'. These new cars (ie. 2010-present) with their current setup and tires seem quite planted when driven on the limit, I have rarely seen unrecoverable spins unless cars are forced into a really acute angle by an opponent. With that out of the way, testing the Huracan for some 20 odd laps on Monza the warming up of the tires is such a welcome improvement. Whatever tire you have on, you must take care now in the first few laps to avoid graining and blistering pushing beyond the limits. There's a noticeable difference in driving feel as the tires warm up.

With the new physics I would say, so far, that I can be more consistent in reaching the car's limit (in this case only the Huracan) and staying there. The limit of adhesion is now somewhere else, I suspect it seems like it is higher since I can now more easily understand what the tires are doing and why. I can push deeper into corners and control the understeer and oversteer a bit better, not a whole lot, but def better. It's also much easier to understand why you understeer or oversteer, the communication through the wheel is improved probably about 25%. Wheel chatter is another improvement, something that was at times lacking in the last patches. Under braking theres a huge improvement, cars with abs and without will benefit from this as most of us dont have elite level equipment to help us.

Overall I have found I can brake more consistently and go throttle earlier with more assurance, however when both those things go wrong I can make the appropriate corrections lap after lap and see a gradual improvement, there's definitely more clarity with this new physics/tire model.

Setups are so far improved as well, small changes are noticeable which is such a welcome change for a noob like me in the setup department.

Beyond that I've not encountered any game issues with the new patch, other than I get no power graphs for some new cars which I suspect is due to the fact that I have mod cars for those makes and something is interfering. There's a sizeable FPS improvement which is so welcome for a low end machine like mine with a GTX960 and i5 4450. I'd say 15fps with upgraded details.

Huge thanks for the boys/girls at Kunos.

EDIT: Forgot to mention tire/rubber flex. This seems to be a new thing. The example is running the cars tires over the kerbs @ Monza first chicane and second as well, not the sausage kerbs. Before the car would get quite unsettled. Running over those would send the car into a stiff bounce and when throttle was applied soon after part or full there was some severe tire spin and loss of traction at times resulting in a power on spin which was unrecoverable.

Now, the bounce is still there however not as pronounced and it is more elastic rather than stiff. There's definite weight transfer as you run over the kerbs but it seems there's tire/rubber flex as your car bounces and fights for traction. It seems very true to life when looking at how Blancpain GT3s negotiate those chicanes. The result is a more consistent experience when pushing for those extra tenths.

Very accurate review.
Totally agree with it, particulary the aspect that the Huracan needs definitely a downside BoP in order to fairly compete with other GT3s.

 

[Msportdan]

you guys make good points. I have taken them on board.

thanks

 

[Michael Stead]

But okay its probably not forza, but I do think it more near the sim end to pcars. That's not a bad thing I just don't think its as authentic as rf2.

It's funny, when I tried the new gt3 cars my first thought was that this now feels a lot more like rf2. There is now a much more pronounced difference in the tires between when you come out of the pits and 2, 3 or 4 laps later, and sliding will massively overheat them. I feel that it's gone towards rf2 on the scale and it's now even further from pc than it already was.

 

[Jan-Olov Johansson]

First impressions after a couple of hours in a few cars is really good. The new tire model has made the cars handle more realistic, closer to how a real car would react and behave. Not perfect but a good step forward.
FFB is really good now, very clean and gives the right hints about what's going on.
Very good update imo.

Notice some fps drops though. When there is dust in view, not behind you but when it's in front of you especially if you spin the car and go off. Anyone seeing that?

 

[Tobbe Bergman]

GSC and strawberry pie

Great physics but very dull looking !

I rather play rFactor 2
I have the demo ATM but as soon it goes Steam it'll be on my hard drive

 

[Tobbe Bergman]

Maybe don't be so antagonistic then.

You don't feel that being blocked for one sentence is a bit oversensitive ?

Of course it was in a sarcastic tone but after releasing DLC after DLC and not focusing on the basic stuff like AI, MP & graphical issues etc etc I think many players are getting more than irritated.

 

[CCL71]

At the end of the day, we all do this thing because we enjoy it. Yes I want a sim that has decent FFB and what I perceive to be good physics but it's a game. The fact of the matter is none of us drive sims the way we would in real life because there is no fear of crashing and being hurt or paying for a car. Like I've said before, if want to know what it feels like to lose control of your car, go do it on a track...Then come back and tell us how bad the tire model is on your car. lol

All of our opinions are valid and invalid at the same time because we're all individuals. What I like may be horrible to the next person and they wouldn't be wrong for feeling that way. Getting mad and flaming developers is pointless in my opinion. If you don't like the product, don't use it. I can find fault with all of my sims but I also find enjoyment that outweighs those issues.

Just enjoy guys. It's not that serious.

 

[Ghoults]

We also know, for a fact, that one of the reasons all the old sims where like ice skating was due to simplified tire models that just couldn't cope at or around extremes. A simple or even simplified Pacejka tire model does not take into any account flash heat, tear grip etc that happens in real life when you are at or over the limit. Hence the old sims had less grip as they followed a simplified transfer function of a sort.

Imho this is not true. Old sims were more difficult simply because the develpers at that time thought there was too much drop off of grip at high slip angles. If you look at rfactor (or gtr, gtr2, gtl) you will notice that once you get enough slip angle the tires Some games were notorious for this. Sportscar gt was really bad high slip angles and so were the f1 games which used the same engine at that time. The gt mod for f1 200x which later developed into gtr (long time ago so I may get some details wrong here?) also suffered from this heavily. Viper racing did not have that issue. It used different engine but the real difference was data. Same with gran turismo or gpl.

Rf1 was the same after the launch too. Cars spinning at relatively low slip angles. Counter steering not working. To get out of slide your best bet was to steer more into the corner to create understeer which could stabilise the car out of slide.

But rf1 was completely reformed into a great sim when people started putting in good tire data. Suddenly you could drift and slide. Not saying there are no issues at all but the issue was not in the code of the simulation. It was 100% about the data and everyone who made rf engine mods or games before 2006-2008 used bad tire data.

The phenomena some people call low speed lack of grip or low speed grip issue is always just bad tire data. Even gran turismos have enough fidelity in their physics engines to do low speed just fine if proper data is used. For much complicated sim it shouldn't be an issue. Anyways the reason why people call it the low speed grip issue is easy to explain.

When you are driving at lower speeds first of all you have less downforce. The faster you go the more more downforce you have. Downforce is grip. This means that at lower speed you can't rely on downforce so most of your cornering and acceleration ability comes from the tires and tire data. Secondly at lower speeds you are using lower gear. This means that the driven tires can output more torque at lower gears because of different gearbox ratios.

For example at high gear your gear ratio can be something like 1. At lower gear it can be something like 4. If your engine outputs 400Nm of torque then at top gear your output at the driven wheels is 400Nm x 1 = 400Nm. However at lower gear your torque available at the driven wheels is 400Nm x 4 = 1600Nm.

In other words it is much easier to get the car to slide with just throttle and steering inputs. Your car has less grip due to lack of downforce and has more torque available. If the tires have poor tire data your handling at low speeds is going to be poor because the bad tire data gives you too little grip when you start sliding. That's it. Too much drop off in grip at high slip angles = easy to spin at lower speeds.

There are of course other ways how one can manage to create low speed issues. Iracing has managed to achieve this by making the tire temperatures rise super fast when sliding (or tires losw grip too much at higher temps, not sure). So much so that the tire will overheat during slide and tire grip drops so slow that you are effectively getting very similar icy spins.

 

[ouvert]

Great physics but very dull looking !

I rather play rFactor 2
I have the demo ATM but as soon it goes Steam it'll be on my hard drive

I just uninstalled rF2 ... imho best physics, best FFB and best AI .. but lacking in content .. I know it is all about mods but lately I just don`t trust modders ... too many bad ones on all platforms (good luck trying to fing decent GT3 mod fot GSC for example) .. well have fun with it

GSC looks just fine to me .. but hey, I`m guy who changed pCars for GTR Evo ...

 

[Tobbe Bergman]

I just uninstalled rF2 ... imho best physics, best FFB and best AI .. but lacking in content .. I know it is all about mods but lately I just don`t trust modders ... too many bad ones on all platforms (good luck trying to fing decent GT3 mod fot GSC for example) .. well have fun with it

GSC looks just fine to me .. but hey, I`m guy who changed pCars for GTR Evo ...

rF2 Lacking in content ?

There are plenty of cars and track to get started IMO.

How's the stock content then ?

Hope the Steam version comes with a good price !

I only use 1 mod car with AC and that is the Mazda 787b which IMO is totally awesome
For mod tracks it's mostly Brands Hatch until Kunos brings their laser scanned version (yummy yummy )

 

[Tobbe Bergman]

At the end of the day, we all do this thing because we enjoy it. Yes I want a sim that has decent FFB and what I perceive to be good physics but it's a game. The fact of the matter is none of us drive sims the way we would in real life because there is no fear of crashing and being hurt or paying for a car. Like I've said before, if want to know what it feels like to lose control of your car, go do it on a track...Then come back and tell us how bad the tire model is on your car. lol

All of our opinions are valid and invalid at the same time because we're all individuals. What I like may be horrible to the next person and they wouldn't be wrong for feeling that way. Getting mad and flaming developers is pointless in my opinion. If you don't like the product, don't use it. I can find fault with all of my sims but I also find enjoyment that outweighs those issues.

Just enjoy guys. It's not that serious.

That post got to be the worst mumbo jumbo of the month

 

[ouvert]

rF2 Lacking in content ?

There are plenty of cars and track to get started IMO.

How's the stock content ?

I only use 1 mod car with AC and that is the Mazda 787b which IMO is totally awesome
For mod tracks it's mostly Brands Hatch until Kunos brings their laser scanned version (yummy yummy )

You have GT1, GT2 car, GT3 car, GT4 car, BTCC car, two historic, 3.5 Formula, Indycar, Skippy, some street cars, etc ..feels more like demo for every car class so modders have some bases to build on ... if you are lucky you will like most of them, which I did not, but after while you just wanna to race with full grid of GT3, WTCC or whatever class you preffer. That is why I wanna be able to play R3E, why I still have GTR Evo on my drive and why AC with its almost full GT3 grid is appealing to me again .. it all comes down to personal preferences .. yet for me it is must have game and I`ll be back to rF2 hopefully sooner than later ...
take a look: it might look long ...

AC Cars AC 427 - Street Car
- Brabham-Repco BT20 - Historic GP
- Chevrolet Camaro - GT3
- Chevrolet Corvette C6.R - GT2
- Corvette (C6) Grand Sport - Street Car
- Corvette (C6) Z06 - Street Car
- Corvette (C6) ZR1 - Street Car
- Corvette C6 Coupe - Street Car
- Dallara DW12 Indy car - Open-Wheel
- EVE F-1, F2, F3 - Historic GP
- Formula RC - RC Car
- Formula Renault 3.5 2010 - Open-Wheel
- Formula Renault 3.5 2014 - Open-Wheel
- Honda Civic NGTC - Touring
- Honda NSX 1991 - Street Car
- Howston G4 - Historic GT
- Howston G6 - Historic GT
- Interceptor Quad - Off-Road
- ISI Formula Masters - Open-Wheel
- Karts - Kart
- Kodi ZR - Touring
- Marussia-Cosworth MR01 - Open-Wheel
- Mercedes-Benz SLS - Safety Car
- Nissan 370z - GT4
- Nissan GT-R - GT1
- Palatov D4 - Prototype
- Panoz AIV Roadster - Street Car
- Renault Clio 197 - Touring
- Renault Clio 197 - Safety Car
- Renault Megane Trophy II - Touring
- Skip Barber Formula 2000 - Open-Wheel
- Spark F-1, F2, F3 - Historic GP
- Stock Cars - Stock Car
- Williams JPH1B FIA F2 - Open-Wheel

 

[bmanic]

But rf1 was completely reformed into a great sim when people started putting in good tire data. Suddenly you could drift and slide. Not saying there are no issues at all but the issue was not in the code of the simulation. It was 100% about the data and everyone who made rf engine mods or games before 2006-2008 used bad tire data.

The phenomena some people call low speed lack of grip or low speed grip issue is always just bad tire data. Even gran turismos have enough fidelity in their physics engines to do low speed just fine if proper data is used. For much complicated sim it shouldn't be an issue. Anyways the reason why people call it the low speed grip issue is easy to explain.

I have to partially disagree. You are right about the data (even tire manufacturers know now a lot more about tires than they did just 10 years ago, thanks to advances in super computing) but the actual simulation plays a huge role too. If you are missing proper dynamic simulation of a tire and all of it's components (this includes the way asphalt kind of "rips" the tire and gives it instant "tack" or whatever you wanna call it) you will not be able to duplicate the experience with a purely data driven Pacejka tire model.. and the differences are not subtle at all.

There is a similar thing that can be compared in the music technology industry. Sampling vs physical modeling. Up to a point sampling will be more natural sounding to most people.. that is until you get into "weird" over the top territory (analogous to going over the limit of a tire). At this point sampling breaks down and can not properly duplicate the instrument and thus will sound very unnatural. You need a mathematical model, a simulation of the actual physics of the instrument, to get into believable territory.

Sure, you can manipulate the data to some extremes but there is only a limited set of data you can input to "predict" each situation. The only real solution is a properly dynamic model. It's also the only way I can see proper tire and suspension damage being created successfully (though this is probably way in the future still).

Disclaimer: I have yet to drive the latest AC 1.3 update but as I was one of the people who always felt it was quite lacking in the physics (sever problems with how cars reacted to setup changes and really odd tire behavior over the limit) I can see why they needed to update it all yet again. Judging by the majority of the comments here (many saying "cars make more sense") I'm positively hopeful that AC has indeed taken another step forward in the physics department.

It's awesome to see so many simulators constantly being improved. iRacing too had a massive update recently. Many cars drive a lot more convincing now.

Once I have a chance to try AC I'll take the BMW Z4 road car on track and see how it resembles the car I am quite familiar with in real life. Prior versions have been very far from the real car so surely it must be a lot better now, especially at lower speeds and high slip angles.

 

[Msportdan]

been playing for last few hours. Theres something I cant get my head around. Is how one cars can feel so inconsistent to another. Take the m125i racing, pretty good handling I think wheel rotation feels right and its feels believable. then hop into the euvora GTC, its a horrid car to drive. The steering is just tunr snap turn snap. I cant dial it out with any ARB or bump settings. I need ratio Kunos!!!!!! I find that a little frustrating tbh. But yeah overall its good, not the best but good.

but even with the nice feeling car(s) I just got bored,,, the AI on the first lap make it feel like an arcade game, theor better on their own but in a group its like bumper cars.

just something that feels so much less dynamic than rf2. even gsc you feel more with the car than Ac..

For me the bottom line is, if you can find a great handling feeling car, AC is agreat hotlapping sim. But for me that's where its sim qualities end. Plus its great suspension ffb effects,

anyway have a goodweekend guys,

 

[Matheus Machado]

When I ran over a rumble strip and my entire setup shook, I knew I was in for something good.

A rumble strip shouldn't feel like you are riding around moon soil. Even in go-karts (no kind of steering filtering) you don't feel like you are going to lose your arms. But The kerb feeling is more natural in this build.

RF2

After the update, it holds the title of best FFB in the market. But AC is still very good, just less detailed on situations it used to be. Don't know though after some more hours of playing if it is for good or bad.

AC has handled this pretty well in most cases and I think it still does after the update. The new tyres made some of the odd low speed behaviour much more predictable (more realistic in my opinion).

Low speed is very good, but high speed became way too unpredictable. It's understandable that a car should be harder to handle at the limit, but the new LaFerrari is easier on the limit and race cars feel like road cars in the same situations. Simcadish way of thinking in my mind.
Just hope we are not betatesting the future console version from now on.

Still on my hopes if we ever are going to be able to match GT2/GTE pace again...

But let me be clear I'm not hating on AC, just posting my impressions on what I feel to be a stepback. Still my favourite game on my collection. Just don't know that would change if I had rF2.

 

[St3fan]

Thats why I say that pcars is good enough. It is a bit floaty, but the general handling is present and believable.

I recently had quite a few heavy understeer experience irl, and I feel PCars does the best job in all sims that I've tried giving heavy understeer FFB. The dragging and bouncing of the cars can be easily felt. A lot more realistic than AC, GSC, GTR2, Race07, LFS, etc. IMO.

 

[Radu Oros]

been playing for last few hours. Theres something I cant get my head around. Is how one cars can feel so inconsistent to another. Take the m125i racing, pretty good handling I think wheel rotation feels right and its feels believable. then hop into the euvora GTC, its a horrid car to drive. The steering is just tunr snap turn snap. I cant dial it out with any ARB or bump settings. I need ratio Kunos!!!!!! I find that a little frustrating tbh. But yeah overall its good, not the best but good.

but even with the nice feeling car(s) I just got bored,,, the AI on the first lap make it feel like an arcade game, theor better on their own but in a group its like bumper cars.

just something that feels so much less dynamic than rf2. even gsc you feel more with the car than Ac..

For me the bottom line is, if you can find a great handling feeling car, AC is agreat hotlapping sim. But for me that's where its sim qualities end. Plus its great suspension ffb effects,

anyway have a goodweekend guys,

Say the wheel settings you're using in controls menu and in wheel software. If you are using something adapted to certain games, might not be suitable for ac.