How to fix too weak brakes?

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I have downloaded some cars where I have to press the brakes all the way to 100% and the brakes will still neither lock up nor trigger ABS. It's tiring on the leg and I'm only braking at around 0.7g, while the tire can do 0.85g.

When stopping some F1 cars from very high speed I find myself pushing the brake pedal all the way to the limit and the wheels still don't lock up due to downforce.

How do I increase the brake force on those cars? The setting only goes from 0-100%, but not more.
 
Well, I can't really help you for modifying the car, but it's called a simulation and these cars actually had such weak brakes.
If pushing your brake to 100% output is too exhausting, simply adjust your brake in the controls settings.

I use a different "100% point" for different cars.
For cars with ABS that need to be pushed to full brake input for most corners, I set the endpoint to about 80% of what I'm using for cars without ABS that lock up easily and only need about 70-80% brake input for most corners.
 
Well, I can't really help you for modifying the car, but it's called a simulation and these cars actually had such weak brakes.
A brake is hydraulic. The harder you push against the pedal, the harder the calipers push against the rotor.

If AC was a true simulation, the brake force would be shown in Newtons, not on a scale of 0-100%, as there is no 100% in real life. So no, this is not realistic at all and it's really bumming me out.
 
A brake is hydraulic. The harder you push against the pedal, the harder the calipers push against the rotor.

If AC was a true simulation, the brake force would be shown in Newtons, not on a scale of 0-100%, as there is no 100% in real life. So no, this is not realistic at all and it's really bumming me out.
To be honest I currently have no explanation for it. I just assumed, that it would be realistic for whatever reasons.
But I agree about the Newtons (some mod cars show the brake pressure in N btw) and I also agree that the explanation is either an inaccuracy or that the brakes would break at more pressure than you can apply.

Same thing with the Ferrari 296 GT3 in ACC, which is my current car in a league. Even if you disable ABS, you can't really lock up at high speeds in all situations.

Anyway, if you don't drive online, you can modify all non-encrypted cars with this tool:

Just save your version with more brake pressure as a different sub-version like "Stage 1" and you should be fine driving online too :)

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1716490885016.png
 
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To be honest I currently have no explanation for it. I just assumed, that it would be realistic for whatever reasons.
But I agree about the Newtons (some mod cars show the brake pressure in N btw) and I also agree that the explanation is either an inaccuracy or that the brakes would break at more pressure than you can apply.

Same thing with the Ferrari 296 GT3 in ACC, which is my current car in a league. Even if you disable ABS, you can't really lock up at high speeds in all situations.

Anyway, if you don't drive online, you can modify all non-encrypted cars with this tool:

Just save your version with more brake pressure as a different sub-version like "Stage 1" and you should be fine driving online too :)

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View attachment 756112

Yes I have that tool already. Tweaking every single car is a tedious task. It would be a lot easier to just use the brake force slider in the settings as I feel the brakes in most cars are (albeit slightly) underpowered. I guess the solution is to manually double or triple the braking force of every single car.

I can't believe the developers of a serious sim game like Assetto Corsa have coded the game for keyboard/controller/potentionmeter brakes. I paid 1000$ for my Simagic load cell pedals and I love them, but now the game is essentially broken, as there is no such thing as 100% input, not in the pedals nor in real life.

Yes the seals on real brakes will break if you put too much pressure through, but no human on earth has the strength for that. Hydraulic brakes, and cable rimbrakes in bicycles scale up braking force linearly to the input force minus some losses due to the elasticity of the hose. The brake disc will eventually begin to heat up and glow red and yellow and then warp/melt and stop working if you work the brakes too much, but even the cheapest hydraulic brake will scale up in brake force until the hose or the seals blow up or metal parts start bending and breaking.
 
Yes I have that tool already. Tweaking every single car is a tedious task. It would be a lot easier to just use the brake force slider in the settings as I feel the brakes in most cars are (albeit slightly) underpowered. I guess the solution is to manually double or triple the braking force of every single car.

I can't believe the developers of a serious sim game like Assetto Corsa have coded the game for keyboard/controller/potentionmeter brakes. I paid 1000$ for my Simagic load cell pedals and I love them, but now the game is essentially broken, as there is no such thing as 100% input, not in the pedals nor in real life.

Yes the seals on real brakes will break if you put too much pressure through, but no human on earth has the strength for that. Hydraulic brakes, and cable rimbrakes in bicycles scale up braking force linearly to the input force minus some losses due to the elasticity of the hose. The brake disc will eventually begin to heat up and glow red and yellow and then warp/melt and stop working if you work the brakes too much, but even the cheapest hydraulic brake will scale up in brake force until the hose or the seals blow up or metal parts start bending and breaking.
I mostly agree.
But all sims I know are like that, for gamepads/keyboard/poti pedals.
You have a point though - there should be a setting in the controls config where you could set the brake pressure for 100% pedal input.
You should be able to lock up any car at least once.
 
I have downloaded some cars where I have to press the brakes all the way to 100% and the brakes will still neither lock up nor trigger ABS. It's tiring on the leg and I'm only braking at around 0.7g, while the tire can do 0.85g.

That can actually happen in real life.
When I got my current car I could trigger the ABS at will with stock brakes and tyres.
After upgrading to stickier (street) sport tyres I had to upgrade the brakepads because the stock ones didn´t generate enough friction with the clamping force (N) possible.
After upgrading the tyres to Semi Slicks (TW 140) I had to put in race spec pads to overwhelm the grip. (Ferodo DS1.11, DTM spec)

So Rasmus has a point there.

When stopping some F1 cars from very high speed I find myself pushing the brake pedal all the way to the limit and the wheels still don't lock up due to downforce.

Read up on aerodynamic downforce.
At high speeds the additional grip is higher than brake power possible.
When you slow down and downforce lessens you have to bleed of the brake pressure to avoid locking up and flatspotting your tyres. That´s real world physics, not a flaw in AC.
You can check that when watching F1, they never lock up at the beginning of the brake zone, except when spinning. But a F1 car sideways has already lost all downforce.
Look into your data recording, when slowing down your center of gravity rises when the downforce bleeds of.
Less normal force on the tyres, easier to lock.
How do I increase the brake force on those cars? The setting only goes from 0-100%, but not more.
Depends on the mod, momentarily I race the TCR Cupra from Trained Monkey Modding at 120% brake force
 
When I got my current car I could trigger the ABS at will with stock brakes and tyres.
After upgrading to stickier (street) sport tyres I had to upgrade the brakepads because the stock ones didn´t generate enough friction with the clamping force (N) possible.
After upgrading the tyres to Semi Slicks (TW 140) I had to put in race spec pads to overwhelm the grip. (Ferodo DS1.11, DTM spec)

The formula for friction is:

1716754574881.png


N being the force applied by the brake pads to the rotor, mu is the coefficient of friction and f is the braking power. The harder you stomp on the pedals, the more your car stops. You simply got brakepads with a higher coefficient of friction. So braking force is the coefficient of friction of your brake pads multipled by the force your leg can push, the only upper limit is your strength.

Ordinary tires allow accelerations up to around 0.85g, sportier semi slick tires can do 1.2g. This is an increase of 40%. You simply had to push the pedal with 40% more force to lock up the tires.

Of course there are more things to consider. The pads coefficient of friction is highest within a range of temperature. Below and above the coefficient of friction is lower, which is why street brakes will not work when overheated, which is the main reason people get race brakes.

My Simagic P1000 are rated for 200kg but the game certainly is not coded for that. The game is coded for potentiometer brakes, which is why I'm in the blue why everyone is recommending load cells. The pedals are fun, but I'm starting to realize that sticking to cheap potentiometer (or reassigning the clutch pedal as the brake pedal) might actually be faster on the track as you can control the amount of brake bleed much more precisely (you know exactly when you hit 100%, and when you're below it e.g. 95%. With load cells you don't).

My fix is to use the Car Tuner and as you can't edit the cars directly create a "Step1" version of all my favorite cars and triple the maximum braking force. I calibrated my P1000 brake pedal to as hard as I can push it with one leg. Now my brakes lock up around 50% brake power with reasonable force and I have huge dynamic reserves in my pedal.

I don't know how you guys set up your FFB, but I do it the same way. Reduce the cars FFB down to around 30% in AC and set the Moza R12 to max power. FFB will usually activate no more than 40% of the 12NM the wheel is capable of which feels ideal, but when crashing or hitting a bump it makes use of the reserves.

There's people out there (youtubers, skilled ones) who limit the FFB to 50% in the Moza software but then turn the FFB up all the way in-game to the point where FFB is actually clipping on each turn. This kind of stupidity is unfathomable to me, but it appears to be the norm among people who aren't engineers or the like... ;(

Read up on aerodynamic downforce.
At high speeds the additional grip is higher than brake power possible.
When you slow down and downforce lessens you have to bleed of the brake pressure to avoid locking up and flatspotting your tyres. That´s real world physics, not a flaw in AC.
You can check that when watching F1, they never lock up at the beginning of the brake zone, except when spinning. But a F1 car sideways has already lost all downforce.

I know how bleeding brake pressure works in high downforce cars.

A F1 cars tires allow for lateral acceleration up to 5 G's. When braking from max speed, they can decelerate with 6-7 G's. The tires don't magically have more grip in one direction than the other, the additional braking force comes from air resistance. That means the tires are on the limit during braking as well as turning, so the brakes are certainly sufficient and it's the tires traction that are the bottleneck during braking at any speed. If they weren't, the F1 engineers would simply make stronger brakes and they would win every race by outbraking the opponents.
 
Well,
seems you have it figured out.

And please, don´t let irl experience deterre you from knowing how things are done.
How stupid of me to invest several hundred Euros if I only had to stomp harder on the pedal of my "physically defect" real life car.

I won´t even start to argue about loadcell pedals with you.
Or that everybody but you does setup theyr FFB wrong.

It´s a good thing that we´ll never meet on sim track as we are into very different cars.

Chers, have fun racing.
 
And please, don´t let irl experience deterre you from knowing how things are done.
How stupid of me to invest several hundred Euros if I only had to stomp harder on the pedal of my "physically defect" real life car.

I believe I explained that there are more factors involved, such as temperature. But that is irrelevant right now. You chose to ignore the point I was trying to make, which is what this thread is all about:

If you stomp on the brakes with double the force, you will get double the braking strength. If you stomp on the brakes with 10x the force, you will get 10x braking strength. If you stomp on the brake pedal with 100x the force, something will probably break, but if it doesn't, you will get 100x the braking strength, at least for 0.1s, before the disk and the pads melt.

AC and most sims have complex tire models, even a tire model for temperature distribution. The brake disk gets none of that attention, however those with loadcell pedals would greatly benefit from it. They could add a similar temperature distribution model for the brake disk, measure clamping force in Newtons and braking power in actual watts, as opposed to an arbitrary 0-100% scale, which is pure arcade level physics.

Well,
seems you have it figured out.

It's just how physics work. Seriously, just stop posting if it's too hard for your mind to grasp. You're wasting peoples time and destroying all attempts to improve upon the game. It's extremely toxic and tiring.
 
This will be my final post on the topic to not overtax your understanding how things should work.

Please read up on how brake calipers work and what "spreading" is.
The calipers in question are sliding pin 2piston calipers from Subaru that limit clamping force by "opening up", meaning they deform instead of clamping harder on the pads.
A valid sign of this are breakpads that don´t wear evenly but in a V-shape.
i still my have some of them in my man cave.

That of course limits the possible clamping force before temperature limits set in.

So in the end please aknowledge, that in theory theory and practice are the same, in practice they are not.
 
Please read up on how brake calipers work and what "spreading" is.
The calipers in question are sliding pin 2piston calipers from Subaru that limit clamping force by "opening up", meaning they deform instead of clamping harder on the pads.

They deform? You mean they fail structurally. Lmao, what are you on about. And why would anyone want calipers that limit clamping force?

This will be my final post on the topic to not overtax your understanding how things should work.

I will not paste my degrees into this forum. I fix my bikes by myself, so I know how a brake system works inside out. If anyone is qualified to write on this subject it's me, but if you're just trolling then, yes please stop as your ramblings justifying AC's crappy arcade braking physics are neither useful nor enlightening and purely toxic to the community.
 
So if you´re qualified to judge car brake systems please post your track car.

My Car.jpg

That´s mine at Pflanzgarten1



And no, elastic deformation under abnormal loads is not failure, its life.
(said my prof for construction)

As why Subaru specs calipers that deform under abnormal loads it´s construction 101. (Cost/benefit ratio)
BTW, even Stoptech/Brembo and sorts deform under load (though much higher load) because otherwise they would be to heavy.

Damn,
I fed the troll again....
 
Curious which games (Simulations?) the OP considers deserving of the name simulation in regards to braking.
None? So why would a game from 2014 simulate it perfectly?

Whats next, steering isnt accurate? Tactile doesnt feel life-like? Crashes dont hurt enough?
 
So if you´re qualified to judge car brake systems please post your track car.

I ride bikes, not cars. And I fix them myself. The amount of braking force you can generate with the front disks (on any bike I've owned) is at least 10x higher than necessary to lock up the front wheel, nothing deforms or falls apart here. Even when the pads are worn and metal is scratching on metal you can lock up the front wheel. The first thing that will give is the brake lever snapping, until then braking power increases linearly with the force applied to it. The same applies to bicycles, rim or disk brakes.

Curious which games (Simulations?) the OP considers deserving of the name simulation in regards to braking.
None? So why would a game from 2014 simulate it perfectly?

Whats next, steering isnt accurate? Tactile doesnt feel life-like? Crashes dont hurt enough?

The game is coded for potentiometer brakes and not load cell brakes. Load cell brake pedals have existed since 20 years though. Patching it for load cell brakes wouldn't be much of an issue would it? You know it's not gonna happen, unless the community collectively requests it from the devs. And as long as there is no patch, there should be a way to work around the issue. Which is why I posted this thread. Is that so complicated to comprehend?

Apparently you people are happy with the way things are and resort to aggressively attack anyone who points out the problems. Well then have fun with the game the way it is I guess. But why go out of your way and litter a thread like this and waste everyones time? You are just stunting progress. You got any idea how toxic you are? I guess it's hard to notice when you're in an echo chamber of this sort of behavior. I visit this forum 2-3x a year, you guys are here everyday.
 
Seems you're also out of reach of modern motorcycles.

The motorcycles I started riding in the 80's actually could lock their front wheels.
The bikes I've been riding the last twenty or so years have enough front grip to do a summersault, so brake force limit is rear wheel lifting from the tarmac.

In all honesty , if you're happy in your bubble please stay there and stop making noise in the real world.
(Especially for a sim that is out of development for 10 years, has one successor on the market and a second announced )
 
You got any idea how toxic you are?
Hmm, the irony of calling other people toxic while also posting offensive stuff like this:
It's just how physics work. Seriously, just stop posting if it's too hard for your mind to grasp. You're wasting peoples time and destroying all attempts to improve upon the game. It's extremely toxic and tiring.
Gonna lock this thread now. Please think twice about your conduct if you post again here.
 
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