Have Your Say: Is Bigger Necessarily Better?

Thats always been my take when someone said "oh you dont need that good stuff. You wont be faster" and my reply is that i want the immersion and a more enjoyable experience. Many people will be faster when they go from cheap FFB to a wheel that make them feel the grip and weight better (some aliens even run without FFB so... Apples and oranges, lol), and if you have crappy pedals that isnt seamless because of being crap pedals so the brake for example jumps a bit instead of being completely smooth and seamless. All those things can make you slower and with a bit better gear you get more feeling and become more precise, and gain time.

The deal is though that above T300 wheels and similar, and mid range pedals like for example CSL Elite LC its mostly about the joy of having epic gear with more detailed feel and power. That detail and power give better feeling but the T300 and similar quality wheels will make you perfectly competitive and a great experience.

By the way triple screen or VR definitely helps here too. Triple screen is not that expensive either unless you need the best monitors (you dont). To have lower FOV and more realistic larger size of the sim world makes you see brake points better, lets you look into the apex and lets you see competitors on the sides of your car which helps both with positioning of the car and immersion. 2 good things in 1 go. :) Immersion also helps with the fun level. To closer feel that you are in a car instead of looking at one monitor with your living room or boy/girl room on the sides. :D

That being said, yes i will get better and better gear with time cause sim racing is a fantastic hobby. Simulators last for years and there is always times or people to beat even with the same combos over and over and over. The fun never ends. :thumbsup:
 
It is just a limited point of view to associate complex sim rigs with the hustle for better lap times. I think the most important motivation to pimp the rig is more and more immersion to get a comprehensive sim experience...
 
I don't know the answer because I've always had to drive a cheap wheel. I am finally looking to upgrade and this is interesting. What I can say from personal experience is that the older I get some changes help. I went to a larger screen and that helped because of my vision.
For me it is where is the point of diminishing return? I am curious to hear more...
 
I am lucky enough to be in a position where I don't really have any other hobbies that cost me much (if any) money, so I have the good fortune to have been able to sink a fair amount of disposable income into my setup. My rig is far from "elite" in that I don't really have anything in the way of "boutique" type upgrades, but I'm guessing in the grand scheme of things my setup is a bit above average.

First and foremost, I will say in my experience I would not go chasing these types of upgrades to get big chunks of laptime improvements. As with real racing, far and away the biggest factor is the driver. If you've got full seconds to make up, as much as it sucks to hear it: it's you. (And, if you are unfortunate enough to be chasing down an alien or aliens, you are probably never going to make up the gap...unless you are yourself an alien!) Once you are to the point where you are trying to make up tenths (not full seconds), it's probably time to start fiddling with car setup options (I made the mistake of trying to tackle this hill way, way before my skills were ready for it).

Knowing what I know now, if I had the hankering to put some money into my sim racing hobby, the first money I would have sunk into it was buying a copy of the Skip Barber book "Going Faster!" You can also find an abbreviated version of much of what is covered in the book in a free-to-watch YouTube video by the same title. The book has far more depth though and, for me, reading and studying it was the number 1 thing that "flipped the light on" for me (I'm still not "fast" by any stretch, but I at least know the difference now between what makes a slow driver slow and fast driver fast and can do enough of the "fast" things to get by and enhance my enjoyment of the hobby).

Now, on to my hardware upgrades. One of the interesting things I'll mention is that I am in what I assume to be a somewhat unique position in that I've handed down all my cast off gear to my son. So, right next to my rig in the basement, he has his own rig with all of the components I have moved on from - that means periodically I have jumped over to his rig either right before or right after lapping on my to see how it compares.

I don't regret any one upgrade I've put money into - each upgrade I think has contributed to my personal immersion and/or laptime performance (much more the former than the latter, though). So, if I had to do it all over again, I am pretty sure I'd have bought all the same stuff...probably just in different order than what I did.

Wheel:
Old X360 wheel w/adapter (no FFB on PC) -> G27 -> Thrustmaster TX
If you are playing with a wheel with no FFB (as I was in the early days), I am quite confident you'll get a decent performance boost upgrading to a wheel with FFB support. Many/most sims at the minimum give very strong understeer warnings via the FFB effects. AC in particular does a very good job of giving you a very good sense of overall car balance via the FFB effects (even though IRL you aren't necessary going to feel this via the steering rack). Going from gear driven (like my G27) to a direct drive (like my TX) I think is not likely to net you much of a performance gain. The higher fidelity the FFB effects coming from the sim, the bigger difference I think you'll notice. rFactor2 for example feels very different (in a good way) on my TX than it does on the G27. The TX is much quieter and smoother, which helps with immersion I think. Performance gains in terms of laptimes *might* be there, as it feels like you get less lag between the effect coming out of the sim and into your fingertips, but I certainly didn't see my laptimes substantially increase.

Monitors:
Old 23" monitor -> New 27" monitor -> 27" x 3 (triples)
If you are like me, the first time you get the "FOV calculator" religion, you are likely to start dropping cash into monitors shortly thereafter. Going from 23" to 27" was, for me, an improvement that only satisfied me for a relatively short time. I went to a full on 27" x 3 setup pretty quickly thereafter and I am very happy I did. I do think there are laptime performance gains associated with upgrade, especially at particular tracks with very tight turns - for example, I really can't even drive Silverstone on a single monitor anymore because it makes "The Loop" essentially a blind corner for me. On the other hand, with triples, I can pick up the apex on my left-most monitor very easily and time my turn-in accordingly. Within a real race though is where the triple advantage really kicks in, I think - being able to see what's happening to either side of you is a big performance advantage (and, for me, a sizable immersion boost to not have to rely as much on virtual mirrors, opponent locator arrows, etc)

Shifter:
No shifter -> G27 shifter -> TH8A shifter
This for me is pure immersion. I am kind of a stickler for driving the car as closely as I can to real life from a transmission behavior perspective. Performance-wise, in my personal experience, more often than not prepare to be punished for insisting on (realistically) using a h-pattern shifter against opponents who in many cases will be using paddles (and often no clutch). Whatever - it's more fun to me to feel like I'm really experiencing what it's like to drive the car than to have a few tenths of performance (which isn't going to be enough for me to be even close to wining the race anyways!) The TH8A's price tag was a little hard to swallow, especially when I got the G27 shifter as part of the G27 "package" and I don't really think the TH8A is that much better. The main advantage the TH8A has is that it lets you simulate lever-style sequential shifting for cars where that is appropriate.

Pedals:
Crappy X360 wheel pedals -> G27 pedals -> T3PA Pro + Ricmotech load cell mod
Of all the crap I've sunk money on, pedals is where I think I could make the most legitimate performance gain argument. Clutch and accelerator are complete performance non-factors in my experience, but I think brake pedal behavior is critically important. Between the G27 pedals and the T3PA Pro sans load cell mod, I really can't say there was much of a difference. You can reconfigure the T3PA's between "GT" and "Formula" mode, but even a self-described "immersion junkie" like myself more times than not can't bring himself to futz around doing the reconfiguration work (I leave mine almost exclusively in the "Formula" mode just because I'm used to it). The "holy crap" moment I had though was when I added the Ricmotech load cell mod. Expensive little thing, but it really put the sim racing experience on its ear for me. My trail braking technique is SO much better now (definite laptime improvements) and also heel/toe is far more natural/consistent/effective (probably laptime improvements here and there - I blow fewer shifts, I don't over-blip as often). Immersion-wise, the load cell mod also makes the brake pedal feel much, much more like an actual brake pedal.

Cockpit:
Wheel clamped to desk -> Wheel Stand Pro -> Obutto Ozone
As far as the Ozone goes, it's kind of nice that it ties everything together - triple monitors, wheel, pedals, shifter, and seat all fit together in one nice, semi-adjustable package. Having a racing seat is a nice immersion boost for me, but I can't imagine it did anything for my laptimes (though in longer races where comfort becomes a factor, I could imagine being less likely to make a mistake if my back/butt aren't hurting).
 
^ or, the TL;DR version:

- I have more money than sense
- If you are after significant laptime improvements, focus on yourself (improve your knowledge with books/videos and drive a lot of laps)
- I think in some cases (i.e. depends on sim/car/track combo) my load cell mod probably gets me a couple tenths
- I think every other hardware "improvement" likely nets me somewhere between nil and a tenth per lap
 
Well, I guess this is one of those question that will remain unanswered.

For me, Loadcell pedals helped me with tyre management, and added a lot to the immersion.
They made me more consistent throughout the race, so for a race distance i will say that good pedals makes you faster, yes.
I do believe though, that with an entry level set, i can do the same laptime during a hotlap, but it might be more due to luck than actual control.

Regarding wheel, I have moved from a G27 to an OSW, which in my opinion is a huge step, and not a feeling that can be described, but have to be experienced. I wouldn't say the wheel makes me faster, however, it makes the whole experience a lot more enjoyable! The increased quality of the FFB also helps with consistency, but I find, that where an DD wheel differ from all other kinds of wheels, is the torque and speed, which can help you in certain situations, when countersteering action is absolutely vital, if you don't want to end the race in the fence.

I have a great example on video right here. When you see the onboard footage in real speed, take note of the speed of the countersteer as soon as the car starts to slide. That's not me moving the wheel that fast, it's all OSW, and I do believe that's what saved the 24 hour race for me. A TM wouldn't be able to move at that speed. This was with 540 degrees of rotation on the wheel.


In the end, it's all a question of enjoying what you have. If you do so, it doesn't really matter what equipment you got. We all do this because it amuses us, only a small amount of people have the privileges to actually earn money on it, for the rest of us, it's only an expense :)
 
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I would like to share my frustration with many of the races and leagues where no ABS is a mandatory settings even for cars that do have ABS IRL. It takes way too much time to get used to the feelings of threshold braking with my stock G27 pedals, and it is not necessary IMO. Although in the end I am comfortable using the pedal with no ABS in simracing, and I changed the brake pedal's spring, I find myself unable to use my brake 10/10th sometimes when I drive on the race track or in autocross events IRL. I would say that having low-end pedals with no ABS in simracing does more harm than good to my driving skills, and I would definitely upgrade to a more realistic pedal in the future.
 
For me, ultimately it has made me faster - but maybe over the years I have just got better from the amount laps I have turned !?!? I have gone from a full Thrustmaster setup to DD OSW with HE Ultimates - The wheel yeah its good, its bulletproof but it just gives me more information on FFB, catching slides etc but you could argue 'Better Immersion' - The Pedals, this is about control, very solid kit, feeding in the power is very precise and the same goes for braking in the corners, more confidence in the car to break later, control the car and exit better. Is it worth the money? maybe, maybe not. But for my rig I am nowadays more about immersion.

Currently I use 27" Triples with TrackIR, I have reluctantly entered into the VR Arena with a Pimax headset, everything looks beautiful In the car but I seem to be slower ? So whats that all about:confused: -
Maybe something I will get use to !?
 
Once you get beyond the basics of an entry level wheel like a G27/29 or TM150 and basically any pedals (they call can be modified in some way for better "feel"), IMO the returns are so diminishing at that point it's not worth it for reducing lap times. Ultimate lap times in every game are dependent on skillsets, understanding what setups work in each game, once you get beyond the base level of equipment. Everything else is just for immersion. I think when you get to some of the stronger wheels, especially the DD wheels, it can actually slow you down because you are constantly fighting the forces from the wheel and you can't turn a wheel as quickly when it's fighting back with 3, 4x or more torque, that's simple physics. Same with pedal pressures. If you have to push with 50 kgs of pressure vs. 15 kgs of pressure you'll likely be slower overall, simply because it takes longer to create 50kgs of pressure vs. 15. Simply physics again.
 
Good stable seat is a must. VR is a revolution. Although everything in the distance looks blurry and ugly, it gives you unbeatable spatial awareness. You can easily follow the car in front of you and never even touch it! You always have time to react cause everything is of the size you are accustomed to.
 
Well my Fanatec setup with a Racing seat combo didn't make me neccessarily faster but more consistent over the time. But to be honest, I won't miss my rig as it is also an immersion to sit
in the real thing :sneaky:
 
Does anyone remember the video from a few years back with the guy doing a parody SimRig tour? With his "Sparco" seat which was just a stool, and a cell phone taped to the steering wheel?

I want to find this vid so badly! Probably the best simracing video ever :roflmao:
Have searched for it previously but couldn't find it either. Was indeed an awesome video :)
 
Dream for me would be a full VR setup with top of the range gear in every way.

But as a middle-aged man, I am time-poor, more than anything. My sim racing is 30 mins a night now, where previously I could dedicate hours to online racing.

The VR stuff looks incredible. Virtual Reality was an embarrassing joke in the mid 1990s, but is now state of the art! Amazing how technology advances against all fashions. The new VR equipment is fantastic.
 
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