Have Your Say: Is Bigger Necessarily Better?

Up to a certain point : Yes

- High-end pedals certainly make you faster
- High-end direct drive wheels make you faster too
- VR makes me more consistent (so faster overall during a race)
- Simvibe, motion ect is just for immersion

PS: The rig in the picture isn't that high end at all if you really analyse it: It's just a mid range Fanatec wheelbase with ä fansy dashboard around it.
 
I remember, a while ago, where some of the fastest driver in LFS were using their mouse.

IMHO, better sim racing hardware isn't about being faster(our brain can adapt fairly well to anything), it's about the enjoyment of using those gears. The immersion goes up.

But having better hardware doesn't magically give a better experience. You have lots of fine tuning to make it worthwhile.

I went to someone who had a load cell brake pedal. It was setup so damn strong that was isn't fun at all. I get that you can set it up any way you want but it still needs to be done properly.
 
Up to a certain point : Yes

- High-end pedals certainly make you faster
- High-end direct drive wheels make you faster too
- VR makes me more consistent (so faster overall during a race)
- Simvibe, motion ect is just for immersion

PS: The rig in the picture isn't that high end at all if you really analyse it: It's just a mid range Fanatec wheelbase with ä fansy dashboard around it.
Still, if you add everything up, you could buy a kart and lots of lapping time for less than this rig.
If sim racing is more expensive than actually going to a track, you can call it an high end rig! :)
 
I think no matter what we use, if we can get it to feel more real the better.
I'm not quick, friends 3 sec A lap quicker, I'm a Boyracer at heart. Me having to save the rearend every other corner suits me, Wide open throttle, there's no bit in the middle. Think that came from racing 2strokes, On or Off that was it.
I got no room for a bigger monitor than 24" so went VR , absolutely amazing Immersion.
Going up Hills become mountains, coming down scary at the oncoming wall,...your stomach jumps on crests when first start but you get used to it.
It's taken me 2 years to get to were I am now, DD wheel next!!!!! Darling wife you got that £1200 I got from overtime#

Wife said " NO " I Spent it last week going to Paris to see Cold play. .... Aggghhhh she gets 48 hours I could of got 4000 hours haha...
 
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I think there are two things that matter a lot here. One is personal preference. Other one is the lowest possible threshold for what is acceptable.

Personal preference is really important I think. Some people for example can drive fast with a pad. Me personally I can barely get the car to the apex when trying to drive with a pad. But with wheel I find things a lot more comfortable. So a suiper cheap option like a pad can already work well for some people. For other people it could be a nightmare to try to drive like that. Other such thing is ffb or no ffb. Again I don't think neither one is automatically slower. But for many people a g27 might work better than something that is not ffb. That being said many people have not tried direct drive wheels or high end non-ffb wheels. The latter used to be the holy grail of sim racing maybe 10 years ago but is pretty much forgotten nowadays.

Other such thing is pot brake versus loadcell. Personally I prefer potbrake because for me it gives better precision. But the highest quality loadcell I've tried is fanatec v1 clubsports. I'd imagine my opinion would change if I had heusinkveld pedals! But for someone else pot brakes might be a totally non-working option. If you have learned to drive in a real car and then start sim racing later you have learned to adjust your braking by adjusting your pedal force.Not position. So a position sensitive pot brake can be really difficult to learn. I'd guess for me the reason why I'm comfortable with pot brake is because that's what I drove in sims before I drove real cars.

So personal preferences can play a huge role. But even then a ton of championships have been won by really crappy wheels and pedals. If you take something like a logitech dfp or one of the black or red momos I'd think it would be a culture shock for many people. But even with your dd wheels you'd struggle trying to get anywhere near some of the older lap times done with those wheels.

That doesn't still mean equipment is meaningless. Faulty or broken equipment does slow you down. Be that spiky potentiometer, intermittently non-functioning button for your paddleshifter or pedal that goes out of calibration. Or wheel that randomly loses ffb or signal. Clearly those will slow you down. I'd say using the absolute lowest quality steering wheels also slows you down. This is the sub 80€ wheel and pedal combos. Small amount of rotation, horrible ffb and questionable quality and basic performance. And if your equipment cost is in the 4 digit range then you are not likely to suffer from failures.

I think comfort is one thing people dismiss too easily when it comes to sim racing equipment. I think simply being able to sit comfortably for one hour without getting fidgety or getting back aches is already worth lots of lap time. Not necesarily over one single lap but over a race distance. Not needing to worry about pedals slipping away from you or not having to drive with your monitor angled towards you because of lack of space certainly won't help your driving performance.

In the end I think a lot of the performance is free and doesn't cost anything. Use proper fov, setup your graphics settings properly (don't run in windowed or borderless mode and make sure you get enough fps), don't use vsync, bring your monitor as close to your face as possible, set up your hardware correctly, adjust your ffb that it is about right, don't sit too far away from steering wheel, keep your graphics drivers up to date, don't run tons of junk software on the background while simracing, don't set up your pedals or wheel to be unlinear, make sure your pedals don't slip away...
 
Where there is a definite ability gain is in the screen you use. Going from 60FPS to 144 doesn't make a massive difference but the difference is there. More importantly, using a gaming monitor with 1ms delay instead of using a tele with 30-150 is obviously massive. I can't stress this enough; if you get concerned over not being able to catch things whilst racing, look at the delay going into your monitor. Huge, huge difference. If you're going for absolute performance and going for higher graphics or triple screen ends up lowering your frame rate, sorry but stop it. :(

In terms of wheels, I think it's already been said that you get used to what you've got. That said, I've only used a DFGT and G27 and the step definitely made me quicker as you simply couldn't turn the DFGT as quickly. I can't see how going for crazy setups would make you quicker but I haven't tried it so can't expand on that much.

As for VR, I use the Oculus Rift in AC and am sure there is a benefit in consistency more than actual lap time; you can also fight people closer as you can actually look at what they're doing easier and react. I'm currently running it with an ATI 390 though so have to turn the graphics down and still, I get reduced frame rates at the beginning of races and sometimes, all the way throughout. As a direct result of this, there is a negative performance effect to using VR if you do not hit that magic 90FPS marker. 45FPS with ASW does something to help but it's not enough for split second reactions and if it drops below this and you get that weird swimming effect, I simply have to slow down or risk crashing with no chance of catching the car. :/
 
I don't do it for better lap times.. its all fun factor for me.. and to satisfy my curiosity..

I like doing the research.. planning the build.. spending the money.. doing the build.. doing more research.. spending more money.. pulling apart.. re building.. etc etc.. it's just farking awesome fun!
 
I've raced competitively in leagues in the past using a basic computer desk, a low to medium end PC and a Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel so my answer is a resounding no, hardware doesn't necessarily make you faster. I got a rig a few years ago simply to have a more comfortable racing position for longer distance races and it has helped in that regard and I've used a G25 (RIP) and moved onto a G27 but that was primarily gotten for a more immersive experience in driving older F1 cars and GT cars.

The main thing I always recommend others to do is read up on driving and setup techniques. A book that helped me a lot is Ayrton Senna's Principles of Race Driving. Other books to consider are Carroll Smith's Drive To Win for driving technique and Tune To Win for car setup and Skip Barber's Going Faster. Those will help much more in getting quicker than any wheel, pedals or rig. A VR headset could also help in getting faster but I think its benefits are more apparent in racing wheel to wheel to be able to see more of your surroundings.
 
It's more or less all about how talented you are. If you have the ground speed to be fast, you automatically would fetch the last tenths with better equipment. Eventually, a better equipment is for a better feeling and a better feeling leads into better handling and better time. All in all it would make a tiny difference, but even one tenth can promote yourself into 3rd instead of 5th... YES it will make you a little better.
 
Well, I know VR or triple screens might help you a bit, a good direct drive wheel and a good brake pedal can make you feel a bit more confident on your driving. In addition a good seat will keep you comfortable for long races. But I also know from time to time you'll run into a guy racing with a keyboard plugged into a Pentium III with one of those old-school tube monitors, and he'll be waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than you. And he'll make you rethink your whole life.
 
I think it definitely does for things that improve your ability to be more precise. A nice set of adjustable pedals with realistic resistance will definitely improve your lap times, consistency, and control in comparison to a standard set of basic spring pedals. And VR (regardless of how you feel about the graphics) will improve your lap times by giving you a realistic sense of speed, closure, and depth, allowing you to better see and hit your lines. You just can't see the apex, elevation and angles the same way in 2D screens. And triples are going to be better than a single screen.

Beyond that, though... when it comes to wheel bases, cockpits, etc. I think it starts to lean more toward immersion factor. Logitech, Thrustmaster, Fanatec, or DD wheel hardware isn't a big of factor. As evidenced by the many aliens using a variety of low-fi and/or old wheels to achieve top times. Some of them set with wheels bases mounted to a desk. I'm not saying things like wheel bases and cockpits don't help. Just that the impact is much much smaller than it is with pedals and display.
 
I think the best of the best in the sim racing world (aliens) are gonna out perform you using any rig they have time to get comfortable with. And a lot of them do use some pretty "cheap" stuff. You're chasing something unattainable there. And the reverse, a completely new to the game amateur (noob) is going to have a learning curve and improvement increase very similar no matter what amount they spend. You can get into the hobby with anything.

I do think there is a little more wiggle room in the middle of the extremes though. Braking is the biggest one I noticed with hardware. Buying a 3rd party brake spring for my G27 was an immediate noticeable difference. I imagine, depending on preferences and what you've learned to "feel" in your preferred sim, that there is other upgrades that could make a difference too. Whether it be TrackIR, VR, triples, direct drive, etc. Sampling head tracking has got me interested in it. But I didn't get past a "breaking in" period or get anything immediate as compared to say the brake spring.

Its all gonna come down to what you're missing racing. Which is a whole thing you need to learn too; how to race. Like say, I learned about apexes and corner types. I tried hitting them to varying degrees of success. I learned about the 'look ahead' settings in my preferred sim. I found the 'look ahead' settings for my personal tastes (which is a bit aggressive) which took an ini edit. So when it came to that aspect of racing, that's perhaps why head tracking wasn't immediate for me. I had already figured out how to see/sense spatially where my car was in a corner through other means. Meanwhile, I had no success improving my braking. Bought that 3rd party spring. Noticeable.

You learn to brake good with a stock G27 spring and software settings before buying a 3rd party spring? You won't get my same experience because you tackled that demon already. You're having a hard time figuring out spatial awareness? Head tracking (or VR) might be that ah'ha moment and seem like a night and day difference. But nothing is ever going to beat time, practice, and laps. You can work with anything you spend the time to learn. Always learning, always improving. No shame in something like a G27, its all on you to get out what you put in. And also, if you're spending within means? Everybody has got to have a hobby to escape the slow burn of life in modern society. Do your thing and go wild!

There's an overlooked side of things I touched on too; software. I know my preferred sim game (AMS) and wheel software inside and out (and am still willing to learn learn learn). So I can eliminate dead zones, get low force set to where I feel the most, got my tire sounds turned up and ear trained to listen to them, etc etc. All those did as much as the brake spring when I took the time to learn. Just thinking back to the first time I loaded up a game, like say "basic" F1 2013, with my wheel and seeing all these weird terms like "FFB" and "smoothing". I was absolutely clueless. Plug n play was my jam. Which plug n play would be ideal, and ignorance is bliss. But there is so much you can tweek to a personalized ideal setup for yours truly. Wheel settings, game setting, ini settings. Learn and personalize em! Video settings, audio settings, car setups. Learn and personalize them!

For me my improvements come in this order; Practice > personalizing software > personalizing hardware. And you need to know racing concepts on top of all of it. Its why Ive fallen in love with sims, endless new things to learn. I still consider myself a noob! With purely hardware though; Where I'm at is that I am quite content with the work and miles I've put in on my G27 that I'm not currently shopping for anything to replace or upgrade it despite this having become the hobby of mine.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I was fastest with a single monitor .
After that I had a triple 32" - which rose my nauseaness a little , but also very much my driving fun and gave me a slower ride.
Now I´m driving on the Oculus - which is sometimes hard to bear - espacially on rally tracks - but is by far the most fun I ever had driving a PC-Game car. But I am even slower now, and need a lot of ginger sweets. :rolleyes:
 
A good driver with a bad rig will always do better through sheer consistency than a crap driver with a great rig. A crap driver with all of the fruit available will only get to increase his level of immersion in the gravel trap.

The secret to being fast is practice and understanding of the physics of a car. Understanding how to shift the weight between wheels is a good example of a fundamental piece of required knowledge.

Practice, study and practice some more. When you are sure that you have practised enough it is time to sleep so you can practice some more tomorrow!
 
Practice, study and practice some more. When you are sure that you have practised enough it is time to sleep so you can practice some more tomorrow!
That reminds of the fact, that I achieve the biggest progress while sleeping.
Do you know that too? Practicing for a few hours, at some point you get stuck. Waiting 1-3 days and try the same again and magic happens :laugh:
I know that it's biologically explainable but still: magic :p
 
IMHO it makes a difference, yes.
I got a better feel for the car with my OSW Wheel and driving with the oculus makes me more steady somehow. It´s also more fun and i´m driving more, which gives me more training.
I started with a Thrustmaster T2 and Need for Speed 1 back in the early 90´s.
 
I've been racing with a G25 for 10 years. Haven't tried better rigs to be able to tell if it would make me faster. Would be interesting if I did go faster though. In any case, I don't think it makes too much difference. As long as you have reasonable feedback from the wheel, and the build quality allows for minimal issues with inputs, then there is no reason for you not to progress in your driving.

But yeah, would be fun to try an expensive rig.
 
I would absolutely love a massive rig, state of the art PC, etc, etc, but I've a proper serious family and it wouldn't go down well!

I play Assetto Corsa with my 1 year old boy with an XBOX controller and he is transfixed by it. I say to my missus that my ultimate ambition is to be the next John Button, going from GP to GP having a great time!

The VR stuff looks incredible. I might dip my toe in that in the next few years.

I lived on my own for quite a while and really enjoyed full race online weekends on LFS. Practice Friday, Qualifying Saturday and Race Sunday. So many great memories of those races.
 
I think that if someone buy's high end hardware, with in mind, he will be faster as soon as he will plug it and will beat the aliens, he's mistaken and expose himself to big disapointment. Everytime i changed my hardware, it took me a while to readapt my reflex : a one step behind in my progression.

It's a fact that performance is not laying in the hardware itself, but in gift and work : just take a look on RSR Live Timing best laps where you can have the description of the hardware aliens use and you will see. So not having top notch hardware ain't no valuable excuse not to practise.

That said, it doesn' t mean that hardware is to be neglected ; the first and and most important thing is that it must be reliable ; the second, is, that depending on the stage of your progression, you might need a hardware change.

If i was given the opportunity to jump back in time and start it all over again, this is how i would proceed :

- beginning with something like g27/g29 wheel pedal shifter combo is ok and can now be found at reasonable rates (at the moment where i'm writing, i just googled and saw a second hand at 150 € in the first results)

- instead, i would focus on a good screen, minimum size 27" for a single screen setup, because you won't go very far if you don't set a correct FOV. Even better if you can afford to setup a triple screen or VR from the start. I personaly commit the mistake to ignore this point and use a 24" far from my eyes with a too wide FOV, and had to relearn almost everything when i realized my mistake

Beginning with this, you have what you need to focus properly on the right racing line while beeing able to stay aware of what is going on on the track (btw, please don't forget to switch virtual mirror on)

- when you'll reach the stage where you want to improve your braking technique, you might feel the need to upgrade your pedals, especially if like me, you're driving real car in real world , as Ghoul already pointed that out in that thread : some say there are ok with pots, lucky they, and i would recommend you to stick to them if you're ok with it, because you wil save a big amount of money and time (as you will see if you're patient enough to read this post till the end).

I just can't get consistent with pots braking. If you can't afford high end pedals, load cell mods can be a good compromise for you ; to be true, i didn't find it full satisfying, because it tends to reduce pedal travel, and once again, interfered with my real world driving experience, where you use both travel and force. So i did the jump to load cell pedals (i used Fanatec CSP v1, had to go back to Thrustmaster T3PA, and did the jump to Fanatec CSL Elite LC a few month ago) That move implied further moves :

- As LC pedals implies using more force to achieve full braking, you'll need to set up an environment where
the pedal set won't move away from you everytime you have to brake hard
- i tried to use wheelstand with a classic chair, it just didn't do the job, so i lost a 100 € here, and what i recommend is just to forget about it
- having no more money to spend, i began to be a little more imaginative, and drew a few holes in the floor of my house to : secure my chair to the floor with the help of brackets (yeah, i defenetly ruined the chair's design) and secure the pedal set to the floor ; the wheel was secure to the desk (that was drilled to use the mounting holes, so i also ruined the desk design)

I used this configuration for a little more than a year before the chairback began to feel like having its own life away from the seat. That made me considered for a real automotive chair : unless you plan to use it on a motion system (where you will need to secure a harness), try to find a basic one that doesn't need the so expensive FIA homologation, and i spent a 100 € there.

With this new chair came the need of having a cockpit and beeiing short of money (as usual), i used my skills and the machine tools i already own to build one from unused wooden pieces and that's where i'm standing now.

As the moment, i'm thinking about further moves :

- i now realize that i would like to have the ability to fine tune my position in my cockpit (wheel height, seat inclination), wich is not possible unless i rebuild most of it : due to the amount of work needed, i think it's a better solution to start it all over again from scratch using 80/20 profiles to make it fit my needs perfectly ; as a first estimation, it will cost me about 300 euros and 4 full days of work to do that. I'm aware that 80/20 solutions already exist on the market, but it's at least 600 euros here (including screen standing), and still not allowing me to fine tune my position from my seat (as you would do it in a real car)

- a little flash back on the LC pedals : though i'm using Fanatec CSL Elite LC pedals, i really hesitate to recommend buying them. It 's true that the feeling out of the box is more than ok for me and that i didn't find anything that can compare at this range of price (about 250 €). However, after a short period of usage, some malfunctions appeared (like the gas pedal whobbling randomly when releasing it), and even if that can be worked around using manual configuration, i'm not sure it won't get worse in the future, hope it won't be too soon. As i can't afford the 1 000 € euros more high end pedals like Heusinkveld or others, i think there is still a niche in the market for affordable and reliable LC Pedals, Mr Thrustmaster if you read me :whistling:.

I don't feel like buying a DD wheel in a soon future. First have to focus on having a perfect driving position for me that will allow long race and training sessions without getting distracted from little aches here and there and improve my heel and toe technique, and that will take me a while cause i ain't no alien. But i don't doubt a time will come when i'll feel that i'll have to pay more attention to FFB to improve my driving, and maybe then i will consider doing the jump and probably have to sollicitate your generosity to do so :whistling:

As a conclusion : don't be a fashion victim, focus on consistently improving your driving technique (go to the academy here, that is no doubt the best initiative i've ever seen since years, and it's a pitty i can't participate due to my weird job schedule), only upgrade when you feel it will help (i think a good sign is when you achieve a technique but find hard to do it consistently along a whole lap, even after hours of practising) and choose proven reliable hardware. As in all life activities, be attentive to your real needs, take time to think by yourself to find what best suits you (the market won't help you there), adn share with others.

Happy track everybody. Best Regards.

Freddo
 
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