Has Automobilista 2 surpassed rFactor 2 as an overall sim?

[Shovas]

Has Automobilista 2 surpassed rFactor 2 as an overall sim?

With the release of the Racin' USA pack we now have GTE, GT3, and GT4 classes (not to mention Protoypes and GT5s) in a rather modern package with a physical tire model. This has been the traditional area of cars and driving experience where rFactor 2 was hard to beat.

I swap between sims for a breath of fresh air and to refresh myself on physical tire models after spending time in other sims that don't have a physical tire model. It helps me reset my feel for what ffb should be as I tune ffb in other sims.

I realized over time that I was getting quite used to AMS2 ffb and, at some point, for most cars and for all practical purposes going back to rF2 for the traditional best driving experience just wasn't that much of a draw anymore, especially factoring in slow loading times, a sluggish and awkward UI, and more demanding yet less attractive graphics.

I'll grant that rF2 still has the edge on the tire model, ffb, physics, etc. But in reality it tends not to be enough of a difference. AMS2 is "good enough" for me now, I guess.

The one area that rF2 has hands down is open moddability. That likely won't ever happen with AMS2. And I'll admit and fully expect that Motorsport Games will bring rF2 up to modern standards...eventually.

But for now, what's your opinion? Has rF2 swapped with AMS2 in your personal rankings?

I think it has for me...for now.

 

[Lloyd Johnston]

Also the lack of sticky rubber is why I think you can tap a car in ACC and send it flying!!!

Yet in AMS2 and RF2 that's not the case, oh and Raceroom (but they have no rubber yet lol) so what do Iknow.

You can see cars tapping each other in real life and get away with it (some will spin out for sure) and you will see drivers make moves stick in a real GT3 race you wont see in ACC for example.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying AMS2 is the best but I also think this idea that every sim must feal like the last is silly. Nothing is perfect, lots of things improve over time.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

I would sy this ^^ is spot on. If you don't drive the car in a manner that is like real life then don't expect the result to feel real.

In sim racing we can push the car to the very limit alot more that a river ever could in real life. I think this is part of why you will see real race drivers out perforemed by sim racers. Real drivers seem to ether drive like it's real, so there times will be slower or don't take it at all serious it just a game after all. Ether way the sim driver ends up faster because they don't care about real like limits, so you see strange stuff happen and would probably see alot more of it in real life to if we couldn't kill our selves.

EXACTLY
i myself ALWAYS drive in sim as it was real car i think sometimes maybe thats why i tell pCARS2 has realistic physics and others tell its not. maybe cause i from my 10 year now real driving experience try to match my real driving into game and i can tell just before corner how to take it and not crash. but there are people goin flat out there and they make it or crash it. thats not how real driver do. he not take croner flat out, crash and die and take note "not take this corner flat out" they approach faster and faster every time, then they stop goin faster into it cause its on limit, but POTENTIALLY they could make it faster but they scared? and simmers do it faster cause they not scared...
also that second thing. simmer can spend whole day 12 hours at one track, day after day for whole year and real driver dont have so much time. and still real drivers sometimes are faster than simmers, whats prons for real drivers? not one. whats cons? limited time, scare of death. and they still faster sometimes, what it mean? so much sims still too hard compared to real thing.
another thing with simracers thet can hit kerbs hard to gain some time, and (it even was told by David Perel GT3 driver on ACC) they drive normal, in real life its abusing car and may lead to tyre punctured or suspension damage. so another con for real drivers: car abuse/damages from kerb hitting, and still not many simmers can make close times to pros. that means something.
take it best simmer and best real driver, best simmer make 1:50 time in sim and pro make 1:52 in sim, but pro do 1:48 in real life and simmer make 2:15 in real life xD i think if sim was realistic pro would make 1:46 in sim, same pro simmer, considering pro driving in sim not scared of life or damaging car can push most of car.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Yes it would IF everyone was in the same car. But setups are part of real racing so should be part of the game but they can definitely be exploited and taken to extremes just like sim driving can.

BUT THING IS, and thats my whole point, in real life, DRIVERS DO NOT MAKE SETUPS, they have like 20 people to make car best for track. and in sims we are ALONE to drive and to MAKE SETUP. thats ridiculous and i say its not fair as one can buy setup and be much faster. i remember ONCE i downloaded setup from AMS2 leaderboards and i cut 5 secs off my best lap ever, i was so happy and sad at same time. happy cause i know im not that bad, and sad that i may be better but im racing people who can be 5 sec faster than me per laps just cause they have setup

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Also watch out for how many times he says it's bouncy, so some bouncing in a race car is to be expected.

of course it bounce, as speed is bigger it bounces more. i think people telling AMS2 cars too bouncy are resting all them opinions on older sims, and never watched real life onboards XD look how it bounce in real life, also how much driver woobles wheel, also couple of slides happen and he react very fast to them, if he did such fast reaction in AC he would be sling shoot to opposite direction xD
i say simmers are used to static cars behaviours in sim, they must have always everything under control, not to permit slide or yo gone etc, car must not bounce cause that make yo head shaking and you feel uncomfortable etc xD oh and thing he said at 0:52 exactly what i said "use kerb but not too much to not upset bounce of the car" i think he mean suspension get damaged every kerb or something. what i mean sims still not so close to real life like damages from upsetting car, no g-forces you feel, no scare of death yet still not many of us can come close to pro drivers lap times, strange think indeed xD

 

[boxer]

i started hating AC lately due to no bending tyres. now i know what people mean by shopping cart simulator. tyres like made of stiff rubber. and AMS2 has bending tyres. it bends, slip angles etc thats why it has grip and catching slide is easier. but hardcore simmers tell AMS2 arcade cause you can catch slide XD
AMS2 has it all, grip , tyre bending, sticking to road so hardcore simmers call it arcade. in other thread i saw guy tellin codemasters f! games are unrealistic cause they showed F1 car making drift xD thats current look of all simracers they think driving car require super human abilities and in real life its so hard and tricky like in AC xD i showed him compilation of F1 cars drifting . same thing with AMS2 i watched once video and youtuber made drift with open wheeler and said this look unrealistic cause he catch that slide too easy xD
recently jimmy broadbent tried AMS2 LMP1 class and he went into drift and said same thing, that those cars shall not drift like that xDDD as if he once drove one, he drive praga and now think he race driver and know best but compare him sim driving and real driving. when sim driving he constantly shaking his wheel on straigh and i dont know why?? and when real driving he keeps it steady so i wonder if he is really good guy to tell us how sims feel compared to real thing??
loo how tyre bends, that makes grip mostly. its not quality of rubber sticking to road if its grippy rubber. but its actually that rubber bending and if car floats its weight around corner, tyre still conected to road. AMS2, pCARS2, MADNESS engine has it. your so called hardcore sims dont. thats why its so harder to drive in AC than real life, and pCARS2 and AMS2 has it spot on
look how rubber working

Where did you get the idea I called AMS2 arcade or AMS2 is terrible? (Honestly the specs or the tech that the game uses doesn't matter to me.) To me replicating the driving feel is the most important.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Also the lack of sticky rubber is why I think you can tap a car in ACC and send it flying!!!

Yet in AMS2 and RF2 that's not the case, oh and Raceroom (but they have no rubber yet lol) so what do Iknow.

You can see cars tapping each other in real life and get away with it (some will spin out for sure) and you will see drivers make moves stick in a real GT3 race you wont see in ACC for example.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying AMS2 is the best but I also think this idea that every sim must feal like the last is silly. Nothing is perfect, lots of things improve over time.

yes iv been tellin it too long ago you just touch another car and you all gone xD i even made comparison to TOP GEAR episode when they literally one car was pushing another and they was driving connected. i also saw other real life footage how cars hiting each at very high speeds and they still go straight, in ACC you barely touch another car at 30 km/h and they make 180 spin LOL wtf? so much realism xD
TOP GEAR 2:50 xD

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Where did you get the idea I called AMS2 arcade or AMS2 is terrible? (Honestly the specs or the tech that the game uses doesn't matter to me.) To me replicating the driving feel is the most important.

dont take it personally as i dont even remember why i quoted exactly your post xD
that part about driving feel i agree 100% thats why i think devs shall take more time driving cars on track or watching TOP GEAR instead of making mathematic and real life telemetry calculations when developing new sim xD
well abous driving feel i mayb agree AC may have better ffb than AMS2 , but physicks im 100% sure is better in AMS2 as i wrote all my post above to proof it.

 

[pevides]

Some interesting take on RF2 physic from ex fanboy (starts @ 10:40)

He talked about a flaw in RF2. No big deal. It´s just about configuring a car in a certain way.

You will not find a sim more true to the real life than RF2. Even the flat spots... it´s incredible.

To reach RF2, first Reiza and AMS2 much reach the level of AMS 1 .... in this point in time, they are between Project Cars and AMS 1. That´s a shame, because I loved AMS 1.

 

[pevides]

yes iv been tellin it too long ago you just touch another car and you all gone xD i even made comparison to TOP GEAR episode when they literally one car was pushing another and they was driving connected. i also saw other real life footage how cars hiting each at very high speeds and they still go straight, in ACC you barely touch another car at 30 km/h and they make 180 spin LOL wtf? so much realism xD
TOP GEAR 2:50 xD

Don´t get me wrong, I know you´re an enthusiast, but I think you should ear and learn from what other people have to say. Putting here videos from youtube is not helping you and saying that AMS 2 is more realistic than ACC, RF2 and IRacing (the most hardcore sims on the market today), is not good if you know what I mean.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

You will not find a sim more true to the real life than RF2. Even the flat spots... it´s incredible.

You should finish that video, sounds like Ermin did, and so did I. He also talks about open mildness etc., good watch. Unfortunately (or fortunately) there is no one sim to rule them all. Each has pluses and minuses.

 

[pevides]

Maybe with this video you understand. Look at the bumpiness from AMS2. The DPIS on the real life are not like that. In these video, it look like the road is full of rocks.

Here is a real life video for comparison. Keep in mind that the road on Daytona is not completely plane/flat:

Now look again to the AMS 2 video. See? That´s the erratic behaviour that the majority of cars from AMS 2 have.... A prototype should not be jumping and skipping all the time. this is just a problem among others. I loved AMS 1. Let´s wait till Reiza do more adjustments.

 

[wolftree]

Putting here videos from youtube is not helping you and saying that AMS 2 is more realistic than ACC, RF2 and IRacing (the most hardcore sims on the market today), is not good if you know what I mean.

Why? Because we are just supposed to repeat mindless orthodoxy ad infinitum? iRacing hasn't been "the most hardcore sim on the market" since at least 2018, probably longer than that. ACC is barely better than AC when it comes to tyre model realism except they model a lot of GT3-specific stuff that other sims don't care about.

Also the comparison videos vs. rF2 are pointless because in rF2 you can (and most people do) use damping on the camera motion to tone it down, whereas in AMS2 you currently can't. Out of the box the rF2 camera is very bouncy as well. Look at the suspension telemetry instead if you really want to make some point.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Maybe with this video you understand. Look at the bumpiness from AMS2. The DPIS on the real life are not like that. In these video, it look like the road is full of rocks.

Here is a real life video for comparison. Keep in mind that the road on Daytona is not completely plane/flat:

Now look again to the AMS 2 video. See? That´s the erratic behaviour that the majority of cars from AMS 2 have.... A prototype should not be jumping and skipping all the time. this is just a problem among others. I loved AMS 1. Let´s wait till Reiza do more adjustments.

so look here at 1:38 how much it bounces

EDIT: its same static camera like in AMS2 , its mounted to dashboard stiff
as @wolftree mentioned above. we cant make camera damping in AMS2 for now so maybe all your misunderstooding of bouncing comes from that camera is mounted stiff to the car, no damping coming from drivers head movements? in other sims you can make head damping, in AMS2 its stiff camera so yo better see all slight bouncing. But i like it, in all my sims i use stiff camera and no damping as it let me better feel speed as i go fast and world shaking in my eyes (i know its not realistic but it let me feel speed better) also when braking i see how car suspension tilting front of car down, and when accelerating i better see how car front goes up, every gear shift there is little shaking that immerses me
i think even such prototypes its impossible to make suspension that will be stiff for better cornering and soft to absorb bounces at same time... or maybe im wrong they use electromagnetic suspension ? xD

 

[Deleted member 963434]

I JUST FOUND PERFECT EXAMPLE
just look first at Broadbent video we talking about, at 5:18 he CATCH GRASS go slide then save and he surprised he saved that. Yo all think its unrealistic cause he saved that and that LMP cant drift. He drift cause he catch grass, but wait till second video from real life
Broadbent video look at 5:18

now look at this, you tell LMP stick to road cant slide? Thats your misunderstooding real vehicles cause of old sims when cars stick more and once they go you cannot save.. in real thing cars not so sticky to road but once they go slide its easier to save actually than in sim. The guy at the end are same surprised as Broadbent by that save, but thing is i mentioned earlier: if such rare thing happen in sim everyone surprised and tell its unrealistic cause he never saw such thing in rFactor xD BUT when same thing happen in real life they just surprised its actually possible.. Thats only one video i found LMP making drift cause as i mentioned earlier there are like 100 real drivers every 100 000 simmers and they not drive everyday for 12 hours so such rare stuff happen more often in sims than real world. Also thing is MOST simmers dont drive cars in sims like they would in real life, and i personally think Broadbent is perfect example. Just compare his driving style in video above how he woobles wheel like pro, and in real life he keeps wheel static slower movements afraid to turn it.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

also yo all surprised lmp oversteers instead of understeer.. thats same thing i found difference between AMS2 and AC or ACC and real world. cars in real world and AMS2 tends more to oversteering, they just turn good into corner and you must make it to not oversteer, and in AC and ACC its opposite, sometimes im very surprised car understeering at slow corner, sometimes i wooble wheel and car wont oversteer it just understeer and thats more unrealistic to me. especially in ACC at first turn left, then right at nurburgring iam always so mad how car understeer there at 60 km/h its so unrealistic and my road car in real life when i turn wheel too much at 60 km/h it oversteer and its not gt3 car. for example when i drive AMS2, RRRE my gt3 car turns good there but i quick go into ACC and its same understeer problem. I always compare every sim to real life, from my personal driving experience (road cars only) and watching onboard videos, you compare every sim to AC or rFactor but you made mistake by first not comparing AC and rFactor to real life. Those two sims cause of them good reputation among simmers are your determinants to tell if new sim is realistic, but first you must tell if your determinant sims actually are realistic?

 

[Johnr777]

Oh no.... he's here now lol

 

[Shovas]

Fwiw I find the videos informative and I find they act as a more objective way to talk about sims.

That said, it is generally considered polite to say your bit and let it be. Nobody is convinced by others, people only convince themselves, and that takes time.

 

[andrea1978]

I would say it is normal that in an AMS2 subforum, this wins the comparison. But I also voted for AMS2 ... since I'm a fan of PC2. I still think that a simulator must be such in all its aspects, not just some: and rF2 is not at all visually, especially in VR. I also have serious doubts on the question of physics, as (as many others have said before me before), one thing is physics, another is the feeling. The latter is strongly linked to the FFB. To understand physics (and compare it) we should drive without FFB and see the behavior of the car with respect to the environment and inputs. As for the FFB, surely the one of rF2 is excellent. I don't particularly like AMS2's, but it's a matter of taste. I prefer that of PC2 (!!!) simply because there are many available, which allow you to have a very different feeling according to taste. It's amazing how a different FFB completely changes the feeling of contact with the road and the movement of the weights. rF2 does it very well with the stock version of the FFB, PC2 does it very well thanks to mods (just try it to believe) and AMS2 is on track or very good, depending on your taste. In any case, let's remember that our brain adapts to FFB, and after a few tens of hours of play, you can reach the same feeling with different FFBs/sims.

 

[Lloyd Johnston]

In terms of motion simulation on my Next Level v3 here's how I would list the sims I've used recently:

1. rFactor 2 - very good you can really feel what the tires are rolling over like road curbs
2. AMS2 - not as good as RF2 but a bit better than ACC (more curb feeling)
3. ACC - on the same level as AMS2 but not very much happens over curbs
4. RaceRoom - Last on this list as the output is very dull on regular road surface need to rid big curbs for much to happen - going to try the new physics tonight

 

[reshaderacer]

The answer is a resounding no. Maybe in weather but what we are really talking about is the driving. Its a no and it probably never will, mate. Thats the hard lump to swallow for a lot of people. And when I say 'a lot' I mean basically the other 149 concurrent players at any one time. Its a small pool, they just can't believe they did not grow in number.

There's a very good reason they did not grow to a large number. Its not as good, its the same content as another game we all know which one, its not updated as fast as we all liked.

Why do these "I wish I was" or "if only we could" comments always come up. The project didn't fire as we all expected. Thats ok. We bought it. Moneys in the bank.

It doesn't need endless penis measuring, naval gazing, or 'positioning' as if its legitimate. Its not. Its just a bit of fun. But its not on the level of rf2 or raceroom or AC. Thats beta-days or alpha-days starry eyed dream gazing.