GTR2: Why are Modern Sims Still Not as Good?

[Paul Jeffrey]

GTR2 is 11 years old, features a series that no longer exists and was developed for technology less advanced than a modern smart phone. Unbelievably it's still one of the best sims available today.

What I want to know is why? Why in the last 10 + years have some of the many awesome features found in this now long forgotten game not made their way into something more modern? Ok granted many different games feature some of the bits in GTR2, but no single title has taken what was already an incredible base and expanded upon it with the aid of much advanced technology we now have at our disposal.

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Simply put GTR2 was massively overdeveloped, period. SimBin Studios quite literally took every single aspect of the then premier GT racing series in the world and recreated it all into a compelling racing experience that still stands out as a top simulation even by the standards of today, 11 years after the game hit our shelves.

I just find it all incredibility bizarre. In very few industries outside of sim racing will you see a decline in product quality and content as the years progress like we have to put up with today. When GTR2 first shipped in September 2006 the game was a complete package, not splattered with ridiculous bugs that prevented anyone having a good time, not bombarded by wave after wave of disparate DLC content with little or no relevance to the main experience and not hanging on by the merest thread for dear life as another iteration of something that's been released by someone else already. It really was a golden time for sim racing fans, and those who witnessed it all first hand really did think this would be the beginning of something big in sim racing.

Fast forward to 2017 and sadly the progress expected post GTR2 has quite simply not materialised. The game, the official simulation of the FIA GT World Championship, was probably the very last fully feature complete racing simulation we have seen in our niche genre. We've had loads of new games since then, some of which have even been released by the same people responsible for GTR and GTR2, but none have even come close to matching the level of features and polish afforded fans back in 2006. It's down right strange.

Take RaceRoom Racing Experience for example, developed as the next GT game from the people behind GTR and GTR2, when the title first hit public beta stage back in February 2013 what did we have? Basically a hotlapping simulation with limited content, no official series licence, no AI to race against and precisely zero multiplayer features. Added to the still missing animated flag marshals and a range of other GTR2 items that haven't made the move over with time, it's all rather a depressing scene in which to take in.

Ok I appreciate Sector3 have worked exceptionally hard at improving RaceRoom to get to a level where it is barely recognisable now to what it looked like on launch day, but still to even consider releasing a game that was basically stripped of everything that made GTR2 great is simply mind boggling.

And it's not just RaceRoom that are guilty of missing out some key features considered par for the course 11 years ago, everyone is doing it! You only have to look at one of the most popular sims on the market Assetto Corsa as a perfect example, they consider themselves to be perfectionists on a mission to produce the most true to life experience possible, and they even miss out the core basics like weather and day to night transition, never mind such "nice to have" features like a driving school, proper flag implementation and multiclass racing options. It's simply amazing to realise that these features quite simply only exist in a game that was designed and released over a decade ago. Unbelievable.

GTR2 still looks pretty good on top graphics settings, still feels very nice indeed with my trusty CSW V2 and still sounds like it belongs in the very top tier of audio experience. All that whilst replicating a seriously mega international championship in a exceptionally detailed simulation that really does pick out all the little features that makes driving on a virtual track feel like the real thing. With that said and the pretty compelling physics considering the age of the title added up with stuff that no other sim has all together in one package, this is why I still believe GTR2 is, without reservation, the very best simulation racing experience one can purchase during 2017.

I love the game, it's just a bit sad that no one has thought to try and make something similar in the following 132 months since it was released.

GTR was released by SimBin Studios exclusively for PC. The game is still available to purchase on Steam for £4.99.

Like GTR2? Well lucky you, we are seriously considering a brand new informal league! Check out the GTR2 sub forum for general GTR2 discussion or our new GTR2 RDGT Championship forum for more details of the new league season. To prepare for the league all we ask is you have Premium membership, a fresh GTR2 install and these two additional patches HERE and HERE. Get ready for a return of the legend....

Do you still enjoy GTR2? What did the sim do right in your opinion? Why do features present in GTR2 still not appear in moderns sims? Let us know in the comments section below!

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

no Simbin couldn't do that unless they got permission from SMS because (I believe) most of the people who did GTR2 are now SMS.

even so, I'd be all over a remastered GTR2 like a rash!

That's all down to who owns the rights to what. Just like EA owns the rights to the ISI-made F1 games, even down to the animation on the trackside workers.

 

[David Wright]

no Simbin couldn't do that unless they got permission from SMS because (I believe) most of the people who did GTR2 are now SMS.

even so, I'd be all over a remastered GTR2 like a rash!

Ownership doesn't always belong to the developer. Typically games in this period were owned by the publisher because the publisher paid the developer to produce the game for them.

If you read the Copyright and Trademark section of the GTR2 manual, only 10Tacle (the publisher) and Simbin are mentioned. Blimey! (who later became SMS) and whom Simbin subcontracted development to, are not mentioned. It is my understanding that Simbin owned the GTR trademark, and possibly the FIA GT license, and 10Tacle owned the game. When 10Tacle went bust Simbin obtained the rights to sell GTL, GTR and GTR2. Its possible they obtained the copyright as well.

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

I also do believe simbin has all rights for the GTR franchise if they prepare for a gtr3 release. Sms/blimey got paid once and probably owns nothing regarding gtr or simbin related trademarks.

So the source-code should remain at simbin and ian bell has a copy of it somewhere in his basement which he will probably digg out this week for pcars2

 

[Damage Inc]

Ownership doesn't always belong to the developer. Typically games in this period were owned by the publisher because the publisher paid the developer to produce the game for them.

If you read the Copyright and Trademark section of the GTR2 manual, only 10Tacle (the publisher) and Simbin are mentioned. Blimey! (who later became SMS) and whom Simbin subcontracted development to, are not mentioned. It is my understanding that Simbin owned the GTR trademark, and possibly the FIA GT license, and 10Tacle owned the game. When 10Tacle went bust Simbin obtained the rights to sell GTL, GTR and GTR2. Its possible they obtained the copyright as well.

fair enough, let's have a remastered GTR2 then!! In fact I'd rather GTR2 in a nice shiney new graphics and modern physics package than GTR3!

 

[Furious Panda]

R3E has the ADAC GT Masters (pretty much the best GT drivers, without all those amateurs) experience with all it's regulations and characteristics

also comes with no tyre pressures,brake temps,flags and er decent AI

 

[DucFreak]

This is sad... I stopped playing GTR2 around 2012/2013 and I think I need to go back AC is just hot lapin for me. Nothing is keeping me there for more then an hour ;/ where in GTR2 I could play 8 hour for example speed up 24h Le Mans race in Porsche 917.

But I have to disagree with author about decline in product quality, every genre of games was hit by this. I play many games and you can see this trend across all of them especially Shooters but also RTS, RPG and even Flight sim. Just look

You, my friend, deserve a million of internet credits just for posting that video! I LOVE IT!

We've seen a growing trend in blaming millennials for everything that has gone to **** in this last decade.
While I believe that's way too harsh and incorrect, I also believe the shifts in mentalities are blatant, something that video does ilustrate (in complete jest/parody maneurism), and unfortunately not for the better, with the current generation of gamers and game developers.

How Every Awful Video Game Thing Was Born

 

[DucFreak]

Many thanks to Paul Jeffrey for the well writen article.

Not sure if the following is kind of a repeat (not going to read every post in 14+ pages, sorry), hopefully not.

We can certainly say that each new gen sim has improved in at least one particular aspect (graphics, absolutely), but none has substancially improved over the previous gen of sims (which date a decade back) in overall terms.

Maybe because the products delivered today in this genre are very different to the ones we had 10 and even 20 years ago.
And we could point to a variety of reasons, from different mentalities to different trends and markets, etc, etc, it would deliver more than enough material to produce an entire new separate thread, maybe even an article.

Where I think the contrast is blatant is in the fact that we used to have totally specialized products.
Racing-sims usually represented racing-series, with the respective cars, drivers and tracks, points/rules systems, etc.
Some more realistic, complex, complete and immersive, others more simplistic and aproachable to casuals, etc, but that was the "traditional formula".

And then Gran-Turismo (and sequels) happened on Playstation consoles, becoming a huge success overnight.
Then Forza (and sequels) on Xbox consoles right after, with a similar level of success.

Ever since those two, every developer of the newest titles tried to produce racing games/sims which are "all things to all people", whereas before you would see them specializing a game title around awesome racing-licenses, themselves not really guaranteed to ressonate with the mainstream public (case in point, GPL, GTL, GTR2, and Race'07).

Looking at the current gen of sims, I think this is very notorious, certainly more in some titles than in others (for AC or PCars, their source of inspiration is more evident) but, nevertheless, there's this "globalistic" formula present in all of the newer gen titles in this genre today.

Something in the process was (and is) lost. And I honestly don't think it's a case of rose-tinted glasses.
Not just functionality limits but also identity. To me that's where this genre went backwards, and in more than one aspect.
Along with that, things that had been already achieved by the previous generation(s) of racing-sims were left out, such as the features we see missing in newer game titles.

Simbin's GTR/GTR2 is one of the most revered sim-racing game titles of past, and perhaps you may now understand why.

We've passed through the true "golden-era" (which this current era certainly is not) and we didn't realize it back then.

 

[Metla]

Personally I think we are right in the midst of a golden era of race sims.....the third by my count. looking foward to the next cycle as well. (but then I think the peak of the last cycle was rF1)

 

[Radu Oros]

Many thanks to Paul Jeffrey for the well writen article.

Not sure if the following is kind of a repeat (not going to read every post in 14+ pages, sorry), hopefully not.

We can certainly say that each new gen sim has improved in at least one particular aspect (graphics, absolutely), but none has substancially improved over the previous gen of sims (which date a decade back) in overall terms.

Maybe because the products delivered today in this genre are very different to the ones we had 10 and even 20 years ago.
And we could point to a variety of reasons, from different mentalities to different trends and markets, etc, etc, it would deliver more than enough material to produce an entire new separate thread, maybe even an article.

Where I think the contrast is blatant is in the fact that we used to have totally specialized products.
Racing-sims usually represented racing-series, with the respective cars, drivers and tracks, points/rules systems, etc.
Some more realistic, complex, complete and immersive, others more simplistic and aproachable to casuals, etc, but that was the "traditional formula".

And then Gran-Turismo happened on Playstation consoles, becoming popular and a billion-dollar success overnight. Same with the following sequels in the series.
Then Forza on XboX consoles right after, with a similar level of success. Same with the following sequels in the series.

Ever since those two, every developer of the newest titles tried to produce racing games/sims which are "all things to all people", whereas before you would see them specializing a game title around awesome racing-licenses, themselves not really guaranteed to ressonate with the mainstream public (case in point, GPL, GTL, GTR2, and Race'07).

Looking at the current gen of sims, I think this is very notorious, certainly a lot more in some titles than others (for AC or PCars, their source of inspiration is more evident) but, nevertheless, there's this "globalistic" formula present in all of the newer gen titles in this genre today.

Something in the process was (and is) lost. And I honestly don't think it's a case of rose-tinted glasses.
Not just functionality limits but also identity. To me that's where this genre went backwards, and in more than one aspect.
Along with that, things that had been already achieved by the previous generation(s) of racing-sims were left out, such as the features we see missing in newer game titles.

Simbin's GTR/GTR2 is one of the most revered sim-racing game titles of past, and perhaps you may now understand why.

We've passed through the true "golden-era" (which this current era certainly is not) and we didn't realize it back then.

I certainly understand your points that in the past racing sims had a goal as a game, the focus was on racing serie(s) with an experience around it (rules, tracks, cars, race formats, environment) and with the gameplay being a simulation as realistic as possible for that time.
But then in the present times is not the duty of the newer companies to follow the same tradition for how a sim racing game should be made and what it should contain. Where are the companies that made those racing sims in the past and why haven't they repeated those games but with 2012-2016 standards?
Is very easy to put the blame on the newer racing sims for not being as the older gen games were, but these newer games are made by several different people, companies, technology, money, trends, gaming audience.
It was not cheap at all to produce a game as GTR2 back in 2005, now it could be even more expensive to make the same type of game but up to today's standards. Because developers and artists salaries aren't cheap, licenses for cars, tracks, and racing series aren't cheap (at all), so you quickly come to realize that is not just willpower to produce a game as GTR2 in the current times.
Is easy to blame AC or rF2 for why they couldn't be like GTR2, but Kunos and ISI budgets 5 or 6 years ago were a fraction of what Simbin had at disposal to produce GTR2.
Since 2010 or so, racing sim genre has been in a transition phase, where there simply wasn't that much resources for investments to make grand sim racing games. So they had to (re)build the games and the companies with another approach, with smaller objectives, which consequently also resulted in smaller games for smaller audiences. Audiences got bigger but at this point is difficult to scale up significantly an already released game. So the hope relies in the future phase or era of racing sims where sim racing companies can start new projects with hopefully bigger budgets.

ps. Multiplayer of racing sims can't rely on community servers any more, have to follow the example of rocket league, csgo, dota2 (not necessarily the iracing style, because is outdated and too expensive). The costs of such multiplayer has to come already in the game price, not in subscriptions.

 

[DucFreak]

I certainly understand your points that in the past racing sims had a goal as a game, the focus was on racing serie(s) with an experience around it (rules, tracks, cars, race formats, environment) and with the gameplay being a simulation as realistic as possible for that time.
But then in the present times is not the duty of the newer companies to follow the same tradition for how a sim racing game should be made and what it should contain. Where are the companies that made those racing sims in the past and why haven't they repeated those games but with 2012-2016 standards?
Is very easy to put the blame on the newer racing sims for not being as the older gen games were, but these newer games are made by several different people, companies, technology, money, trends, gaming audience.
It was not cheap at all to produce a game as GTR2 back in 2005, now it could be even more expensive to make the same type of game but up to today's standards. Because developers and artists salaries aren't cheap, licenses for cars, tracks, and racing series aren't cheap (at all), so you quickly come to realize that is not just willpower to produce a game as GTR2 in the current times.
Is easy to blame AC or rF2 for why they couldn't be like GTR2, but Kunos and ISI budgets 5 or 6 years ago were a fraction of what Simbin had at disposal to produce GTR2.
Since 2010 or so, racing sim genre has been in a transition phase, where there simply wasn't that much resources for investments to make grand sim racing games. So they had to (re)build the games and the companies with another approach, with smaller objectives, which consequently also resulted in smaller games for smaller audiences. Audiences got bigger but at this point is difficult to scale up significantly an already released game. So the hope relies in the future phase or era of racing sims where sim racing companies can start new projects with hopefully bigger budgets.

ps. Multiplayer of racing sims can't rely on community servers any more, have to follow the example of rocket league, csgo, dota2 (not necessarily the iracing style, because is outdated and too expensive). The costs of such multiplayer has to come already in the game price, not in subscriptions.

Certainly not disagreeing with you there.
Cost is certainly one of the many reasons for not having real life series recreated. But it is not the only reason.
Lack of resources is not the only problem. Monetary gains are - and in this case "more" and "quicker" gains.

What everyone should always remember is that all these independent developers (like ISI and Kunos) decided to be and stay like that - independent, indie.

After NKPro and FVA, Kunos went for a "sort-of-GranTurismo" for the PC, because they knew it was easier to produce/develop (than something like GTR2), while having bigger chances of selling the product to a possible wider audience. It's now on consoles as well.
When compared, RF2 is a different story (a tragic one, IMO) and a very different game and concept from ISI.

Lack of vision and ambition, and fear of failure, also isn't helping the genre.
Sure, the current economy is still far from amazing, but perhaps some risks could be taken.

Over 15 years ago, there was a racing-game called "F355 Challenge".
It was based on a real life single-make racing series, and with less than a dozen of tracks.
The particular game was not a full blown racing-sim but it was pretty amazing back then. Sure, it was produced by no less than Sega, for the arcades, and the Sega Dreamcast console.
Still, there was no other racing game going into little minute details like that one did at the time.

What I'm trying to focus with this game here (F355 Challenge) as example is its concept, and how it could be adopted for hardcore sim-racing.

Imagine a full blown sim-racing game where you have a single-makes series with the all the drivers, all the tracks, the events/championship, with every single minute detail possible of being recreated. From physics to sounds, from cockpits to laser tracks, rules, weight penalties (etc), you name it.
With all the minute details recreated, faithfull and complete in features. At flight-sim levels of detail all around (think DCS, Prepare3D or XPlane11 details).
Imagine, say, a Porsche 911 GT3 Cup official game. In true "sim-racing" form, brutally detailed and in modern tech.

Notice that one car, and with one performance only, simplifies all the tasks. Not only it speeds up the development process, it potentially decreases chances for incompabilities in content and with bugs (also, AI performance, for example), but also potentially easier to fix if that happens.
It also potentially increases the chances of a much(!) higher level of fidelity in all aspects of the simulation for the given vehicle. It is also much less costly to recreate.

Wouldn't you prefer something like that, instead of the usual considered risk of watering down details and/or features for the sake of higher (nonsensical) quantity/diversity while cutting costs?
Sincerely, I think every sim-racer worth its salt would like to at least have a go at something like that.

Consider this - our genre is very niche, where the "hardcore simmers" today end up spending thousands, in PC hardware and peripherals (sim-racing and otherwise). The levels of demanded sophistication will only increase with better controllers, peripherals and faster/better hardware. People will need to justify to themselves the investment/dedication, and an insanely detailed game like that could be the next best thing for this reason.

The problem is, the devs would have to be passionate (and have the balls or be crazy?) enough to realize that it wouldn't sell like GT, Forza, PCars or AC.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Over 15 years ago, there was a racing-game called "F355 Challenge".

Yes i remember this game.. it was so much fun..

 

[Furious Panda]

well thought i would try this game and see what all the fuss is about,must say for a 10 year old game its good and with the power and glory mod installed its very good but quite shocked how bad this 10 year old game runs on my system very low fps when it raining lots of stuttering on some mod tracks,project cars ran better than this,love the animated pit crew though and sparks when grounding out the cars wow lol...one thing I've yet to see on a modern driving sim..dont no why though its such a basic feature...sooo can definitely see where the OP is coming from.

 

[Bjarne Hansen]

You got an issue as you should see 4-6 times the fps as you got in PCars!
The are some converted tracks that runs poorly in some areas due to very large textures and Dynamic shadows even fare from the tarmac.
But for 99% of tracks and mods and special P&G you should not see low fps and stuttering.

 

[David Wright]

I recently replaced my 7 year old gaming PC and was surprised to find GTR2 ran slightly slower on my new i5 than on my old core 2 duo. Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised given the new processor runs at pretty much the same clock speed. What I did find had a huge benefit on my new PC was assigning the gtr2.exe to more than one core using task manager. Doing the same on my old PC had no effect.

 

[Phil Ciborowski]

I think the whole thing boils down to two things; replay/play-ability and nostalgia.

When I play it it brings back great memories of being so frustrated I almost chucked the whole thing out the window. Memories of actually learning how to do things right, how to handle the car and conditions, the memories of those small personal successes that happen when you do finally podium in the wet with the AI at its max. I keep playing it now, with a better wheel (had a madkatz on a gameport back then), better computer, more skill (hopefully?) and I still enjoy it. And for whatever reason, this actually feels right. There is stuff about the new games/sims that are lost because they have these "photoreal" graphics. Something that when GTR2 came out needed to be made up with actual game play performance. So while it didnt look the best, it felt right. Or what the idea of right was at the time.

There are a few games that are a decade old and I still go back and still LOVE playing them. NR2k3, Janes Fighters Anthology (I cant get USAF to work anymore..), Grand Prix Legends, and even the EA F1 series... Nascar2003 being my all time favorite, and I STILL play it (the recent nascar games have been just crap).

 

[Andy_J]

I think the whole thing boils down to two things; replay/play-ability and nostalgia.

I agree with you Phil.
If you have Windows 7 Janes USAF works great. But I think Windows 10 breaks it. I also still play NR2003.

 

[Phil Ciborowski]

I agree with you Phil.
If you have Windows 7 Janes USAF works great. But I think Windows 10 breaks it. I also still play NR2003.

I could never get it to work (USAF that is ) with win7, or 10. Granted I have been HOOKED on LOMAC since it came out, and just recently picked it back up in its current form, for the reasons listed above. It has that nostalgia of being one of those games that gives you the feel goods when you do well.. because its so damn hard. Even if its not as old as F117 or F19 stealth fighter (which I had, and played using the floppy floppy's!).

Nascar2003 seems to have been broken by the latest card update, because when I try and run it, i get the reconfigure graphics screen again, and my textures are sub par...

I still have Toca race driver 3 installed and play it (only really because of the memories I had when I played it the first time.... and those monster trucks and buggies!

 

[Deleted member 130869]

Do you have GTP mod? Anyway, check online for how to improve your graphics, your issue must be solvable via notepad edits. I can't link here but both over at SRMZ and NoGrip there are extensive walk-throughs on a lot of things. I wrote some of them myself and borrowed from elsewhere too.

 

[Phil Ciborowski]

Do you have GTP mod? Anyway, check online for how to improve your graphics, your issue must be solvable via notepad edits. I can't link here but both over at SRMZ and NoGrip there are extensive walk-throughs on a lot of things. I wrote some of them myself and borrowed from elsewhere too.

No I dont like that mod. Yes I know of and have implemented those edits long ago - Over a year to be exact when I built my current computer.. It worked just fine up to the last nvidia driver update. And I never had this issue before with my setup. Its not a simple note pad edit - even if you lock the d3d file after editing, you still get forced through the config, and you still get blurry textures... I have narrowed it down to a mix of cars from different sites which were saved at differing qualities, and to the br16 mod. Possibly a combination of both.

 

[Shovas]

R3E has no relation at all to GTR2.

In fact, SimBin never wrote a single line of code for GTR2.

The SimBin name on GTR2 is merely contractual for marketing and naming purposes. The game was developed entirely by another unrelated studio.

Sorry for the late reply, just reading through this thread now.

I completely did not know this...and somehow it's making a lot of sense to me. How they went from GTR2 to Race07 et al, and now what has happened with R3E, and seeing where SMS is taking PCARS2 (huge potential if they get the physics and ffb right which some youtube reviews are hinting at).

We might not like to admit it but, besides PC1's physics/ffb, they seem to be well on their way to implementing all the features (if not yet the experience) that we've been missing for such a long time.