GTR2: Why are Modern Sims Still Not as Good?

[Paul Jeffrey]

GTR2 is 11 years old, features a series that no longer exists and was developed for technology less advanced than a modern smart phone. Unbelievably it's still one of the best sims available today.

What I want to know is why? Why in the last 10 + years have some of the many awesome features found in this now long forgotten game not made their way into something more modern? Ok granted many different games feature some of the bits in GTR2, but no single title has taken what was already an incredible base and expanded upon it with the aid of much advanced technology we now have at our disposal.

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Simply put GTR2 was massively overdeveloped, period. SimBin Studios quite literally took every single aspect of the then premier GT racing series in the world and recreated it all into a compelling racing experience that still stands out as a top simulation even by the standards of today, 11 years after the game hit our shelves.

I just find it all incredibility bizarre. In very few industries outside of sim racing will you see a decline in product quality and content as the years progress like we have to put up with today. When GTR2 first shipped in September 2006 the game was a complete package, not splattered with ridiculous bugs that prevented anyone having a good time, not bombarded by wave after wave of disparate DLC content with little or no relevance to the main experience and not hanging on by the merest thread for dear life as another iteration of something that's been released by someone else already. It really was a golden time for sim racing fans, and those who witnessed it all first hand really did think this would be the beginning of something big in sim racing.

Fast forward to 2017 and sadly the progress expected post GTR2 has quite simply not materialised. The game, the official simulation of the FIA GT World Championship, was probably the very last fully feature complete racing simulation we have seen in our niche genre. We've had loads of new games since then, some of which have even been released by the same people responsible for GTR and GTR2, but none have even come close to matching the level of features and polish afforded fans back in 2006. It's down right strange.

Take RaceRoom Racing Experience for example, developed as the next GT game from the people behind GTR and GTR2, when the title first hit public beta stage back in February 2013 what did we have? Basically a hotlapping simulation with limited content, no official series licence, no AI to race against and precisely zero multiplayer features. Added to the still missing animated flag marshals and a range of other GTR2 items that haven't made the move over with time, it's all rather a depressing scene in which to take in.

Ok I appreciate Sector3 have worked exceptionally hard at improving RaceRoom to get to a level where it is barely recognisable now to what it looked like on launch day, but still to even consider releasing a game that was basically stripped of everything that made GTR2 great is simply mind boggling.

And it's not just RaceRoom that are guilty of missing out some key features considered par for the course 11 years ago, everyone is doing it! You only have to look at one of the most popular sims on the market Assetto Corsa as a perfect example, they consider themselves to be perfectionists on a mission to produce the most true to life experience possible, and they even miss out the core basics like weather and day to night transition, never mind such "nice to have" features like a driving school, proper flag implementation and multiclass racing options. It's simply amazing to realise that these features quite simply only exist in a game that was designed and released over a decade ago. Unbelievable.

GTR2 still looks pretty good on top graphics settings, still feels very nice indeed with my trusty CSW V2 and still sounds like it belongs in the very top tier of audio experience. All that whilst replicating a seriously mega international championship in a exceptionally detailed simulation that really does pick out all the little features that makes driving on a virtual track feel like the real thing. With that said and the pretty compelling physics considering the age of the title added up with stuff that no other sim has all together in one package, this is why I still believe GTR2 is, without reservation, the very best simulation racing experience one can purchase during 2017.

I love the game, it's just a bit sad that no one has thought to try and make something similar in the following 132 months since it was released.

GTR was released by SimBin Studios exclusively for PC. The game is still available to purchase on Steam for £4.99.

Like GTR2? Well lucky you, we are seriously considering a brand new informal league! Check out the GTR2 sub forum for general GTR2 discussion or our new GTR2 RDGT Championship forum for more details of the new league season. To prepare for the league all we ask is you have Premium membership, a fresh GTR2 install and these two additional patches HERE and HERE. Get ready for a return of the legend....

Do you still enjoy GTR2? What did the sim do right in your opinion? Why do features present in GTR2 still not appear in moderns sims? Let us know in the comments section below!

 

[Rodent]

AI clearly isn't as important to iRacing, but it's still vital to the genre. As an American, sometimes I can't race at the same times as every one else, and maybe I want to experience a car that no one else is racing in a league. Having good AI is always nice, you can't go wrong with that.

Same thing as a Euro really, a reason to look forward to pCARS 2 for me is taking the Nissan GTP-ZX around a track with some sort of competition however crazy their AI might be this time, in iRacing it was a hotlap car for me due to not many races going official. iRacing kinda gets away with no AI, but I don't think there's room for any more MP only sims, that market is tapped as is and unless there's a major growth in the sim racing scene a new MP only title would only compete for the same player base. Arguably the same is true for sims with AI, but they're all cheap enough that most of us own and play all of them anyway.

I think this year will be real interesting with at least 2 more titles coming out with curated MP as well as having AI for single player racing, iRacing already has a few series on the road side that have problems getting races to go official outside of pre-planned times on the forums. If other titles steer more road racers away from the service I can easily envision a cascade effect of iRacing very quickly not being the goto choice for online racing on the road side. Oval there's no competition at all it seems so no choice for those who enjoy that side of things. iRacing will have to show in the coming year that their service is worth paying both a subscription and for content all while, to tie this together with the threads topic, offering one of the least complete packages in all of sim racing. I have no idea how it'll turn out, but it'll be interesting.

 

[Kenny Paton]

Yes, those handling/physics features you mentioned are extremely important to the genre of sim racing. Without them, it's not quite sim racing, and if it's not sim racing,

In the real world some people want to play racing games and enjoy them, it's very easy to disparage those that race GT/Forza et al. but if they are enjoying that experience then why is there a need for some to treat them as some second class racers, I'm pretty sure they race just as hard as the rF2 guys. In what already is a niche genre do we really need to further fracture the community. I very seldom come across a Forza player making disdainful comments about hardcore racers so why the need for the opposite.
As an aside, I watched your video and while I agree with the good points you made re rF2, and yes there may be a tinge of nostalgia involved, I thought that it was ironic that the title in the post was 'identity' probably what rF2 lacks most.

 

[JoeNathanYouTube]

I mean, I'm not putting them down for enjoying Forza/GT. I'm just saying, we want things to be more realistic, that's why we have damage on 100%, assists turned off, etc. We want that added realism, we want the added difficulty. It doesn't make us better people/gamers in any way, it's just a preference.

As for rFactor 2 lacking an identity... It's what you make it, of course. Being a modding platform and all, it's not exactly pre-built to have one, but definitely can be given one based on your own interests. And that's pretty cool if you ask me. Same can be said for Assetto Corsa. "Ahhh there's a whole lot of pieces but no identity!" "Well that's not true, look at these supercars!" "Ah, but I don't care about supercars."

And so it's unfair to say Assetto has no identity at all, if that makes sense.

Edit: Thanks by the way, I appreciate the view lol

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

a little tip for a performance-boost for GTR2, espescially at night-races with AI. It really works wonders, kinda strange, but if you set your CPU-Affinity to use all 8 cores/threads the games uses all of them, or atleast spreads them wisely to all cores/threads.... by default it would drop to 30-40fps on night-races....with all cores/threads assigned to gtr2.exe, steady 60fps. Using ProcessLasso to assign it automatically when GTR2.exe starts

 

[Tim Ling]

After having read through this thread it seems that there are a number of things we agree on that are important to us:

• Acurate physics
• Deep immersion-this includes day/night cycle, weather, pit crew, etc.
  
• Good graphics
• Excellent sound

The last two items are now pretty much standard across the new sims, with both our eyes and ears enjoying the sensory candy.
Physics are improving as developers gain a deeper understanding of how the cars react to the world around them, but this is also limited by the amount of CPU power in an average machine, whether pc or console.
Immersion is a difficult one, as it is somewhat subjective, but this is one area that the devs could work on. Probably thr biggest problem is that it can be a moving target-in Geoff Crammonds original Grand Prix, pit stops meant getting to your pit box, staying still for a couple of seconds, then roaring back out. Now we want animated pit crew! That makes true immersionm one of the hardest things to acheive.
Two other things that have been mentioned:

• AI
• Matchmaking

I would appreciate an AI that adjusted to my level, forcing me to get better to acheive my goals. Not being a coder, I have no idea how difficult it must be to get this right, but for me, this is a vital area for improvement. After all, a challenging, human-like AI would make the level of immersion sky-rocket. I'm hoping that pCars2 and GTR3 really deliver here!
As for matchmaking, this is a tough one. I think this, more than anything else, is how iRacing gets away with charging for its services. With other games it's different- with CS:GO/BF1etc. you jump in to a server and hope your skill level is roughly equal to everyone elses. If it's not, you just leave and find another server. With sim-racing that's not really possible. Add yet the complexity of creating a matchmaking service that works, and one that protects againg griefers...it's enough to make the devs cry .

Let's hope that the guys making GTR3, pCars, AC etc. are reading this thread. I think they'll get some good ideas from what people have brought out.

 

[Andy_J]

Probably thr biggest problem is that it can be a moving target-in Geoff Crammonds original Grand Prix, pit stops meant getting to your pit box, staying still for a couple of seconds, then roaring back out. Now we want animated pit crew!

Grand Prix 4 had animated pitstops. Good they were too.

 

[Tim Ling]

Grand Prix 4 had animated pitstops. Good they were too.

The GTR2 ones aren't too bad either .

 

[Haydan Jinnette]

Games were just better... Was thinking about the other day about WoO Sprintcars 2002 on the PS2... You had to manage buying cars and repairing them from the damage you caused... Details such as that are completely unheard of... NASCAR Thunder 2003, you started with a slow car and a slow pit crew and slowly developed a better super speedway package or faster and more reliable crew... Winning became an easier task and you actually felt proud of your achievements winning the championship...

It's no big secret that fams long for this level of detail but somehow these wishes go ignored... A decent TOCA/ Race Driver game... It's 2017 for crying out loud...

 

[Radu Oros]

Yes, those handling/physics features you mentioned are extremely important to the genre of sim racing. Without them, it's not quite sim racing, and if it's not sim racing, then it's not really any different from Forza/GT and then we'd all have to question why we have such extraordinary rigs and gaming setups, putting up with missing features and incomplete games... Also, did you really just complain about tire wear and rain? What?

Nonetheless, it's important. And so is AI.

AI clearly isn't as important to iRacing, but it's still vital to the genre. As an American, sometimes I can't race at the same times as every one else, and maybe I want to experience a car that no one else is racing in a league. Having good AI is always nice, you can't go wrong with that.

Realism (advanced realism) for sim racing is important. But this is not what makes people race in mass. Neither with simulating fully and 100% accurately the real world and the cars you will get 10.000 players online at the same time.
Understand that there is so much what simulation value can do for the game, but past a threshold it won't evolve anymore, and what are you left with? Still with a game that only a couple hundred are interested in racing and using in overall.
The same with dynamic night day weather, these features can only do so much for the game. Do sim racers really believe that once a sim has all these simulation and weather value features multiplayer will be very popular and that millions of customers will have bought the game?

Simulation, weather, race customization (motorsport features), content, will only do so much in making sim racing a genre of its own with barely enough audience. But this is not what puts people to race against each other daily with a big amount of participants.

I will give the tip once again, sim racing game companies need to follow the online multiplayer example from rocket league, csgo, dota2. Plan the budget of the game for this to already come included in the game price.

 

[hitm4k3r]

Thanks man, appreciate the words... all is forgiven

Just to be sure (for everyone's sake, not in reference to your original post). We (RD) and me personally are independent, not on anyone's payroll or under obligation in any way shape or form to cover anything. That's what's great about us here, we have tota; and utter freedom to do whatever we want, whenever we want

Personally the idea of showing favouritism or bias in any way to anyone is totally against what I stand for. I must admit I do tend to steer more towards the positives in life than the negatives, but that's just my nature. In the same token I'm not afraid to say when something is s*it!!! I hope the work I've done here in the past, and will continue to do in the future, makes people believe I report credible and trustworthy content. That is my only goal

I have no problems with you and enjoy your readings, but to claim that there is no favoritism towards certain users or products is a bit of a far stretch and I still don't know why certain users are allowed to rate and some aren't - just giving you an example that there certainly isn't everything right and fine. I don't even know why I was banned just pointing out obvious facts last time around, when other people can post their agressive nonesense at every occasion and get away with it. I know that this isn't necessarily your fault but certain other moderators get a bit sensitive when the air gets thin and I think it's quite important as an admin team to present you as a unit. When moderators demand mutual respect in their forum rules, it would be a good start to demand it from everybody and lead as an example. Removing the rating rights from your users and trolling them isn't the best way to show how mutual respect works. I know, that this might get me banned again, but at the end this will just prove my point. Please don't take this in a personal way, but as feedback concerning the moderation on this website as a whole.

@Topic: I still fire up GTR2 once in a while but it isn't all that great when you dig a bit deeper and get back to newer sims. What makes it stand out for me is that it features a complete racing series with all cars, tracks and rules, and a racing school that gives you a great way to learn cars and tracks wich is especialy good for newcomers. But that's about it. To say that newer sims aren't that good is not really a impression that I share. They are different but not worse. GTR2 has some really annoying shortcommings in other areas where I get frustrated easily and where I am glad to have alternatives. The AI is propably one of the biggest issues for me.

 

[Matt Orr]

And where is the identity in AC and pCars?

AC is pretty much the only title on PC offering a decently full list of street cars until Forza 7 arrives, as well as the lack of competition for the modding crown thanks to rF2 not doing what it was supposed to do on that front. Had rF2 kept a more active community onboard it'd be interesting to see if AC becomes as popular as it has. (And don't even think of good mods, also need to consider those various drift mods that are popular with certain super-big-time youtubers who like to use the word "bro!" every third word)

Project CARS has graphics and we all know that will always sell regardless, at least once, on top of being a more complete game feature wise.

 

[Hash_V8]

For a @ mantwith noname you get around, good to see you around sim racing forums.

@Quf "because buzzword features do what buzzword features do."

Those features that you list are not "buzzword features" and imo to suggest such, as a sim race genre fan, is ridiculous, its those very things that makes "Sim" racing its own genre, not content lists.

"Do you think real professional drivers get excited over their brake pressure, the rolling starts, the chassis flex, their very real engine leaking oil, tyres shredding from wear, rain non-stop for hours. These are just problems for engineers and the team crew."

Oh are you serious, I would kill to have all that detailed in my race sims, as im sure many would, I couldn't give a hoot if "real drivers" care or not, if they arent interested in this IRL while racing, they must be pretty brain dead pilots, and extremely frustrating to work with, also many many ppl on track dont have the privilege of race teams and engineers, its a ridiculous argument in the name of excusing certain sims for not having as many details and features.

"Simulation, weather, race customization (motorsport features), content, will only do so much in making sim racing a genre of its own with barely enough audience. But this is not what puts people to race against each other daily with a big amount of participants."

And as more ppl advance with gaming in general there will be more people interested in taking it a step further, id bet almost every one in sim racing came looking as you can only put so many hours into the like of GT/Forzas etc before yearning more its just natural, gaming in general is still maturing as a medium, as a "Sim" genre, devs shouldnt be taking backward steps to appease the masses.

 

[Mike Kadlcak]

There are two crowds of PC sim-racers i guess... the one including me who stayed with papyrus games like GPL, Nascar 4 and N2003 for a long time due to the advanced netcode for multiplayer and physics. The other group went on the ISI engine side and GTR 1/2 due to love for GT cars and mods I guess. For me I grew up as a cart/indycar fan ... so those GT cars were never a magnet to me. Sure I tried all sims... but really didn't like the feel of any ISI engine based games/sims so those stayed dusters in the shelf.

Did not like any of the physics GTR nor GTR2, race07, rfactor 1/2 any of that.

So yea I don't agree with this article at all!

 

[Tim Ling]

When all is said and done, I guess we just have to be thankful that therre are people ot there that have the same desire to drive fast as we do, and have the skills to create the simulators to do it.
Each sim has it's own strengths (and weaknesses), so unlass we are able to join a software company and help create our dream sim, lets just enjoy what we have.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I still don't know why certain users are allowed to rate and some aren't

Because you don't need to know everything maybe? It isn't of your business who we have moderated a million times in the past and that he is on his way out from this community. Us revoking his troll rating rights is the second and penultimate step towards a permanent goodbye.

250,000 registered users that are allowed to rate, 2 members have their rating rights revoked. Do the math.

 

[hitm4k3r]

Because you don't need to know everything maybe? It isn't of your business who we have moderated a million times in the past and that he is on his way out from this community. Us revoking his troll rating rights is the second and penultimate step towards a permanent goodbye.

250,000 registered users that are allowed to rate, 2 members have their rating rights revoked. Do the math.

See, there comes the whole problem. I know that his "passion" can be a bit annoying at times, but he is certainly not trolling and brings more to the table than certain other users in disussions and especialy in this topic I haven't seen a single troll attempt from him, but just his opinion. His opinion can be a bit strong, but that's about it. If you start treating every of your 250.000 guests based on their opinions it gets questionable. And you trolling him is basicly nothing else than stepping to the same level of a troll. It doesn't matter how many people have their rating rights revoked if principles and rules can be bent how ever it fits your needs. For the guest, who is unfairly treated, it doesn't matter whether there are 10, 100 or 100k registered users.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Believe me that the majority of our visitors and contributing members have had it with the few individuals constantly showing their "passion".

Few people seem to forget that RD is not a public forum, or a game developers forums, but a privately owned independent forum where we live by a few rules we have set many years ago. You can either agree and live by those rules, or choose to play the troll and get yourself eventually removed for breaching these rules multiple times.

People get enough chances to change their behavior as we hardly hand out permanent insta-bans.

With that said we are returning to the topic of the thread. If you have improvement suggestions you can drop them in the appropriate support and feedback forum.

 

[Manwith Noname]

The thing with GTR2 and certain other titles of that and earlier era's is most people who view them fondly are of a certain age where they were strongly influenced by their arrival. It's like music. Nothing I have heard in the many years since compares to what engaged me in my mid to late teenage years, where a person largely forms their own unique identity. That's not to say you can't be heavily influenced by something outside this period.

Have modern sims improved in certain areas? Sure. Does GTR2 (among others) still show how a cohesive and well formed product can keep you coming back years later. Yes. It might be a fleeting visit but no one can take my rose tinted glasses away from me.

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

simbin could also release a Remastered GTR2. It's pretty common these days and would fit perfect in todays weak-SimRacingWorld.

i have bunch of HQ mods installed and still am impressed about the Engine-Sounds. AC And Pcars are equally both worse in sounddepartment.

 

[Damage Inc]

simbin could also release a Remastered GTR2. It's pretty common these days and would fit perfect in todays weak-SimRacingWorld.

i have bunch of HQ mods installed and still am impressed about the Engine-Sounds. AC And Pcars are equally both worse in sounddepartment.

no Simbin couldn't do that unless they got permission from SMS because (I believe) most of the people who did GTR2 are now SMS.

even so, I'd be all over a remastered GTR2 like a rash!