PC1 Force Feedback Analysis

vee10 · May 11, 2015

Yes another FFB thread. Don't get me wrong enjoying the game on the whole. I have been trying to work out what has been bugging me with regard to the steering and FFB. This is a issue that we had in the Codemasters F1 games, lack of road feel. I just can't work a way around it. What I am seeing on the screen from the way the car is behaving and what the FFB meter is showing and also what I am feeling through the wheel does not correlate. Take a look at Alonso's lap at Catalunya.

Look at the way his hands oscillate on the wheel they are constantly being fed infromation that is even with a high sidewall on the F1 tyre.

PaulH · May 12, 2015

Msportdan said:
i have the answer to the video comparison!!!!!!!

...ones real life ones a video game...

please people stop expecting real life forces in a plastic wheel driven by a few gears or belts..

cmon..

Hmm, not sure what you mean? Every other Sim I have driven(far from being an expert) "simulates" vibration in a straight line, that's all we saying, PC seems to lack that straight line feel that's all.

vee10 · May 12, 2015

Msportdan said:
i have the answer to the video comparison!!!!!!!

...ones real life ones a video game...

please people stop expecting real life forces in a plastic wheel driven by a few gears or belts..

cmon..

Are you sure you have the right hobby Dan, I saw a thread of yours on ISI forums that stated a similar viewpoint, that went well did'nt it?

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/24467-why-do-we-call-video-games-sims?highlight=

You know as well as we do that other games/sims whatever you want to call it do this just fine.

kauff · May 12, 2015

So which tweaker files are people referring to (or having the best luck)? The standard or the FY + SOP Lateral Mix from Jack Spade? I just noticed that there are two sets from Spade. The RUF GT3 feels limp on my G27 with the standard tweaker files. I do not have any feeling of under-steer, over-steer, or road noise. I really have no idea where the limit is.

Is there any way to load the tweaker files and then have the game interface override that (opposite of what its doing currently)?

Bram Hengeveld · May 12, 2015

Pretty good solution actually. Just stop using the word sim and wipe it all under the same carpet of Racing Games. Like it!

vee10 · May 12, 2015

Bram Hengeveld said:
Pretty good solution actually. Just stop using the word sim and wipe it all under the same carpet of Racing Games. Like it!

I just thought of this catchy little title to categorise 'sims'

Close approximation of interactive vehicular behaviour.

ouvert · May 12, 2015

Ive just install it and tried it for first time (z4 and radical so far) and it feels pretty good .. nicelly progressive, you can feel car sliding in corners and loosing grip, weigh transfer is not exaggerated, centering is not springy like in AC or R3E and there is no looseness in center of steering .. still on default settings for DFGT and feeling like good starting point .. is is little bit arcady and easy to drive but not to the extend when it takes away all fun ..

edit: just tried Merc DTM evo 2 with settings from forum and it feels great ..

jimortality · May 12, 2015

@Lazarou Paul, just reading through various bits on other forums and a lot of people have the DFGT but are saying logitech no longer make or support the wheels etc so maybe you don't have the necessary drivers? Just a thought mate. Could do with a bit more rumble but the monitor definitely picks up the bumps with my TX.

vee10 · May 12, 2015

jimortality said:
@Lazarou Paul, just reading through various bits on other forums and a lot of people have the DFGT but are saying logitech no longer make or support the wheels etc so maybe you don't have the necessary drivers? Just a thought mate. Could do with a bit more rumble but the monitor definitely picks up the bumps with my TX.

Could well be Jim. A upgraded wheel is on my shopping list for the near future. I have the latest Logitech Software but that is still quite old. Funny that every other game works fine with it though. And the DFGT is actually supported by the game. I don't think it probably helps having 80,000 people designing your game though!

jimortality · May 12, 2015

Lazarou said:
Could well be Jim. A upgraded wheel is on my shopping list for the near future. I have the latest Logitech Software but that is still quite old. Funny that every other game works fine with it though. And the DFGT is actually supported by the game. I don't think it probably helps having 80,000 people designing your game though!

True lol 80000 different FFB versions scary!!!

ouvert · May 12, 2015

jimortality said:
@Lazarou Paul, just reading through various bits on other forums and a lot of people have the DFGT but are saying logitech no longer make or support the wheels etc so maybe you don't have the necessary drivers? Just a thought mate. Could do with a bit more rumble but the monitor definitely picks up the bumps with my TX.

it is supported .. game finds it automatically and it works perfectly fine .. sometimes it reminds me of r3e FFB before they screw it up with that springy feeling .. better than ACs, worst than GSCs/rF2, different than GTR Evos .. havent tried that many cars and I`m still on default settings thought .. hard for me to admit but Merc DTM Evo2 on Nords feels better than the one in AC .. certainly not as accurate (never been there so who cares) but bumps, cambers, elevations are all there ..

vee10 · May 15, 2015

We now have some FFB in a straight line.

Deadzone removal range 0.30

Vladimir Antic · May 15, 2015

That dont work on CSR

DrJustice · May 15, 2015

A thing re. FFB:

There are many things you feel in a real car that are generally not rotational forces on your steering wheel. Going straight ahead, going over a bump that is perfectly perpendicular to your direction of travel, ABS kicking in, engine vibration etc.. These things are felt though the chassis and steering wheel (ABS also through the brake pedal) as vibrations and jolts - test for yourself on your next IRL drive. So if you use pure physics derived FFB, you won't feel them.

This is why many games offer canned effects to supply the driver with more, non steering wheel related, sensations. BTW, project CARS has optional "Body" and "Seat of Pants" to add to the FFB. Engine vibrations and jolts are better simulated using Buttkickers, Simvibe and the like.

Dave McMillan · May 15, 2015

DrJustice said:
A thing re. FFB:

There are many things you feel in a real car that are generally not rotational forces on your steering wheel. Going straight ahead, going over a bump that is perfectly perpendicular to your direction of travel, ABS kicking in, engine vibration etc.. These things are felt though the chassis and steering wheel (ABS also through the brake pedal) as vibrations and jolts - test for yourself on your next IRL drive. So if you use pure physics derived FFB, you won't feel them.

This is why many games offer canned effects to supply the driver with more, non steering wheel related, sensations. BTW, project CARS has optional "Body" and "Seat of Pants" to add to the FFB. Engine vibrations and jolts are better simulated using Buttkickers, Simvibe and the like.

True, but you still get vibrations / changes in the feedback through the actual wheel, which should be simulated in the game. Even if it is only canned effects, as that's what most people have, only a minority have buttkickers, simvibe and the likes, but most of us have a wheel.

Dave McMillan · May 15, 2015

Lazarou said:
We now have some FFB in a straight line.

Deadzone removal range 0.30

To be honest that doesn't look like proper FFB either from the graph. It looks like the center step you get in FFB by turning the deadzone removal setting up too high.

DrJustice · May 15, 2015

Dave McMillan said:
True, but you still get vibrations / changes in the feedback through the actual wheel, which should be simulated in the game. Even if it is only canned effects, as that's what most people have, only a minority have buttkickers, simvibe and the likes, but most of us have a wheel.

Well, yes - I agree to some extent. I'm not opposed to canned effects, but from a sim purity standpoint, if it's a non rotational force on the steering wheel it shouldn't be in the FFB signal.

I'm planning to get tactile feedback system, perhaps Simvibe, to get these sensations in a way that doesn't interfere with the steering or muddle the FFB signal. That should take the racing experience up another notch

Sele1981 · May 16, 2015

DrJustice said:
Well, yes - I agree to some extent. I'm not opposed to canned effects, but from a sim purity standpoint, if it's a non rotational force on the steering wheel it shouldn't be in the FFB signal.

I'm planning to get tactile feedback system, perhaps Simvibe, to get these sensations in a way that doesn't interfere with the steering or muddle the FFB signal. That should take the racing experience up another notch

I have Simvibe and there starts the bigger problem

I am used to get the exact same feedback from my wheel as well as from Simvibe (road bumps) in iRacing. They both give me the exact same feedback and harmonize perfectly together. Every bump you feel under your ass, you also feel in your wheel. Even though it is maybe not so in real life - but we miss G-Forces anyway so with Simvibe and such stuff we can simulate at least bumps and other things.

And that was a game killer in Pcars as I first started it. Simvibe was shaking the hell out of me and also the arms from the driver on the screen were moving on road bumps but the wheel (CSW V2) was totally dead on the straight. So at the moment, the only solution is to turn Simvibe effects way down so that it fits more with what the wheel is doing.

Oh btw. Simvibe, Amplifiers and Transducers are one of the best (low budget) investitions for Sim Racing. You never will drive again without it I promise. I will upgrade soon from 2 to 4 and will use chasis mode.

PaulH · May 16, 2015

Lazarou said:
We now have some FFB in a straight line.

Deadzone removal range 0.30

Paul, I think your onto something there, I just tried messing with that setting, 0.30 was way too erratic, but I've dialed it down to 0.06 feels pretty good on those long straights now, will tinker a bit more

DrJustice · May 16, 2015

Sele1981 said:
I have Simvibe and there starts the bigger problem

I am used to get the exact same feedback from my wheel as well as from Simvibe (road bumps) in iRacing. They both give me the exact same feedback and harmonize perfectly together. Every bump you feel under your ass, you also feel in your wheel. Even though it is maybe not so in real life - but we miss G-Forces anyway so with Simvibe and such stuff we can simulate at least bumps and other things.

And that was a game killer in Pcars as I first started it. Simvibe was shaking the hell out of me and also the arms from the driver on the screen were moving on road bumps but the wheel (CSW V2) was totally dead on the straight. So at the moment, the only solution is to turn Simvibe effects way down so that it fits more with what the wheel is doing.

Oh btw. Simvibe, Amplifiers and Transducers are one of the best (low budget) investitions for Sim Racing. You never will drive again without it I promise. I will upgrade soon from 2 to 4 and will use chasis mode.

Sounds good, I look forward to adding a 2 or 4 point tactile feedback system

Have you not found Simvibe settings that feel good to you in pCARS? I've started writing my own physics derived tactile feedback software, so hopefully between that and Simvibe I'll find something to satisfy.

Oh, and the steering wheel shake animation is not physics derived - it's for aesthetics, if you like. I suppose many (most?) wheel users turn off the arms and steering wheel anyway. If you try that, perhaps there will be less discord between what you see and what you feel.

Ace King · May 16, 2015

PaulH said:
Paul, I think your onto something there, I just tried messing with that setting, 0.30 was way too erratic, but I've dialed it down to 0.06 feels pretty good on those long straights now, will tinker a bit more

Use the "Wheel Check" utility and you won't need to guess how much deadzone your wheel has. Even if we all have the same wheel our calculated deadzones will be different due to wear and other factors!

Note: Start wheel check and in the "spring force" window drop down box look for "min force" and select it and in a few seconds you will see at the bottom of the wheel check your "maximum value for "steeringFFBBaseOffset" which is your deadzone. Test several times and choose either your average or the highest reading in your tests. I choose to use the highest reading for my G25 which is 14% (.14) and it works quite well. During the tests don't move your wheel or mouse!

Your FFB will affect your deadzone so always re-calculate when changing it.

Wheel Check:
http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?attachments/wheelcheck_1_72-zip.31633/