Electric Cars - The Future of Consumer Motoring?

[jonelsorel]

The sad reality is that population control is the best way to save our planet.

I love electric cars, but they are not going to have a huge impact. As a cyclist, I'd love to ride on roads without exhaust fumes. They will improve the air quality in large cities, but over all our planet is being destroyed because of our population growth.

10% of the population consume 90% of the resources and you're talking overpopulation? More than half the food produced makes its way to the bin before it hits the plate. Oh, and population growth has been slowing down for a while now (check UN data).

 

[RCHeliguy]

10% of the population consume 90% of the resources and you're talking overpopulation? More than half the food produced makes its way to the bin before it hits the plate. Wake up and smell the coffee.

You are missing the trends. What is happening with that other 90% of the population?

China is growing into a HUGE consumer of goods. They are ramping up electric power generation and building large mega projects. When a country becomes industrialized and their people start to make more money they eat more meat and buy more stuff. Forests are cleared to grow more beef, and to supply wood. Strip mining and use of whatever natural resources ramps up. India likewise is growing by leaps and bounds.

The problem is that most of the 90% are envious of the 10% and are actively working their way towards that same level of consumption.

Right now many of these people who consume very little personally are burning down vast amounts of the Amazon rain forest. All to improve their quality of life. So you don't have to be a mega consumer to have a huge impact on our planet.

 

[jonelsorel]

Oh, and about 15 cargo ships produce more pollution than all the petrol and diesel cars in the world. But they want people to switch to silly, expensive electric farts that you have to recharge as often as your phone.

https://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/02...RUctE_i9fymwSQ6RkN0UmzAlWqRDAwXSh3FDlf6w9ZeVV

 

[jonelsorel]

You are missing the trends. What is happening with that other 90% of the population?

China is growing into a HUGE consumer of goods. They are ramping up electric power generation and building large mega projects. When a country becomes industrialized and their people start to make more money they eat more meat and buy more stuff. Forests are cleared to grow more beef, and to supply wood. Strip mining and use of whatever natural resources ramps up. India likewise is growing by leaps and bounds.

The problem is that most of the 90% are envious of the 10% and are actively working their way towards that same level of consumption.

Right now many of these people who consume very little personally are burning down vast amounts of the Amazon rain forest. All to improve their quality of life. So you don't have to be a mega consumer to have a huge impact on our planet.

Let's hope that India and China are not as gullible and self destructive as the civilized west, eh? Unless, of course, capitalism impresses them too with our "developed" model.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@jonelsorel I do agree with you that we have to change our habits. Sadly in the US the culture is all about excess. People who are fit and eat healthy are ridiculed by our obese population. Highly educated people are ridiculed by a surprising number of people who now think science and even education are bad things.

The feelings by many in the US are scary and those flames are being fanned. People are putting their heads in the ground and disbelieving that there is anything to worry about.

On the other hand there are a lot of millenials who have decided that there is no future and have decided not to bring any children into this world. There are also environmental scientists who have given up and just moved there families to areas that will be less impacted by the changes going on in the near term.

There are countries that are dropping in population. Japan has already dropped about 3 million in population. A combination of having nearly zero immigration and a low birth rate is causing downsizing on a large scale with more adult diapers than baby diapers being sold. There are some estimates that the world population will hit an inflection point in about 10-15 years and start to shrink across the board.

 

[BrunoBæ]

I made snow balls last winter, but that doesn't mean we don't have global warming.
Do you have any idea what H2 costs and how far a vehicle can go on that H2

Im actually beginning to wonder if you have an idea - at all.
Eventhough I dont blindly consider the following article as the final word in this cost of hydrogen discussion - then its conclusion does divert so much from your many smart postulates that I personally have no problem distinguishing who sounds most believable.
https://www.clean-energy-water-tech.com/2012/03/hydrogen-is-cheaper-than-gasoline-and.html?m=1

Hydrogen is cheaper than Gasoline and Diesel
There is a general opinion that Hydrogen is currently very expensive compared to Gasoline and Diesel.
It depends on how you generate Hydrogen.
()
Hydrogen can be generated directly from tap water by simply electrolyzing it using a Direct current such as solar and wind.
If we use grid power, it requires about 68kwhrs of electricity, costing about $3.40 per Kg of Hydrogen.
Assuming Hydrogen will cost about $5 per kg after compression and storage, it is still worth the cost.
This Hydrogen will give a mileage of 73.4 miles/kg using Fuel cell car.
This is equivalent to 3.67 Gallons of Gasoline costing approximately $13.76 at the rate of $3.75 per gallon.
It is very clear that Hydrogen is cheaper than Gasoline or Diesel.
At the current price, Gasoline costs 275% more than Hydrogen gas.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Oh, and about 15 cargo ships produce more pollution than all the petrol and diesel cars in the world. But they want people to switch to silly, expensive electric farts that you have to recharge as often as your phone.

Want to hear something crazy? I was just watching a TED talk that said next year they are phasing in Scrubbers on those big ship emitters and they will have to start following guidelines for cleaning their air just like power plants.

That's not the crazy part. The TED talk went on to explain how man made aerosols are currently cooling the earth about about 1.1C which is helping to offset the increase from CO2. They said that the SO2 produced by these large ships was shielding the oceans from heat and that we should be able to measure an increase in the Earth's global temperature as a result of these ships cleaning up their exhaust.

We just can't seem to catch a break.

BTW cars mostly create NOx at ground level that generates Ozone which is harmful to us and not aerosols that help us.

 

[Frank]

The problem is that creating Hydrogen vs. taking the power that goes into hydrogen creation and just charging a battery with it throws away half of the power generated. Then you need to build a huge infrastructure to store and distribute H2. In the end electric is much easier. It's already distributed and it is much less wasteful of power.

Thanks for the informative reply!

The creation of batteries leaves a huge CO2 footprint and is only seen as a temporary solution until hydrogen is ready. Just because you don't read about it, it doesn't mean there is a lot of development ongoing, which there is.
Hydrogen is still the way forward and there is a lot of work being done with it. The problem like you say it currently costs too much energy to create hydrogen, so it is not efficient enough yet in the creation process. We are getting close to the point where we can make hydrogen with less of a footprint.
Hydrogen is already way more efficient in power delivery than a battery, it is able to convert almost all of its mass to energy. Also don't forget it is not electric vs hydrogen, even with a hydrogen car you will still be driving an electric car. As the most efficient way to use hydrogen is to basically use it as a "battery" for an electric powered vehicle.

My response is only the tip of the iceberg and very shortly explained, if you want to learn more about it I suggest reading some recent science magazines and get yourself acquainted with various science channels on YouTube, you will find them fast enough if you look for it.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The problem is how we all look at the world through our own personal biases. I'm not excluding myself from that statement.

You compare the future of H2 creation with current battery technology when the chemistry involved to create batteries is also changing. As I mentioned earlier there are a number of battery technologies that use completely different and very readily available chemicals with much lower CO2 foot prints.

I was unaware of any breakthroughs in H2 creation. It has been a perpetual decade away without any near term progress that I'm aware of. However if there have been breakthroughs here, I'd love to hear about them.

The bottom line is that competing technologies are a good thing and there are certain specific use cases where Fuel Cell tech makes more sense than batteries and visa versa. So if they are both evolving we all benefit.

 

[protonv5]

I'll just leave this here:

 

[Durge Driven]

You should limit these type of threads to 1 comment each

Population control, really

 

[protonv5]

You should limit these type of threads to 1 comment each

Population control, really

I agree. You're done.

 

[David Wright]

A couple of years ago I thought the way many here think. Then I did a bit of research and watched a couple of YouTubers who run electric cars. One of them lives not far from me and runs an EV primarily because it saves him money. The other lives in Norway which has invested in the infrastructure and now has 60% of new cars sold being full EVs (i.e. not including hybrids). I honestly think in 10 years time most European countries will be like Norway in terms of EV sales.

 

[Terry Rock]

Electric cars are not the devil.
The folks wanting to outlaw ICE by purposely attempting to make it more difficult to own one are.
I'm of the mindset we can have both.
Balance is not a bad thing. Each person can choose what is appropriate for their needs.
I personally own two Saab automobiles. I have no plan to give either up anytime soon.
If an ICE is properly designed the fuel burn characteristics will yield low levels of emissions.
The only electric car I have ever driven was a co-worker's 2013 Chevy Volt.
Though the performance was very good, I'm not yet ready to buy one.
Like everything else, the initial cost is set based on how manufacturers perceived product acceptance... 'It uses less gas therefore it must be super expensive to purchase.'
It's a bit like the diesel pricing.
In the fuel production cycle, it is way less expensive then gasoline to produce.
Initially, when gasoline was selling for $1.20 per gallon...diesel was $0.65 per gallon.
The moment manufacturers started producing cars which got better mileage... and even before the demand went up, the gouging began.
A gallon of diesel now cost more than a gallon of gasoline...despite costing less to produce.
I still realize 32-35 mpg on long highway trips with my cars and 21-25 mpg in combined driving.
People tend to forget the overall footprint of EVs also includes the energy used to process the electricity...unless you are using solar to charge them.

 

[Nick Hill]

@jonelsorel I do agree with you that we have to change our habits. Sadly in the US the culture is all about excess. People who are fit and eat healthy are ridiculed by our obese population. Highly educated people are ridiculed by a surprising number of people who now think science and even education are bad things.

I think you nailed it. I'm very worried about our country. We've become extremely fearful and mean and I think drowning in our own excess is at the heart of it all. And before anyone runs with the idea of this being some kind of thinly veiled critique of the current political climate, it's not. I think this has been several generations in the making. We are very ill as a culture and I fear it will be worse before it gets better.

It scares me for the rest of the world, too. The USA has pulled some real nasty stuff over the years...but the USA has also done some pretty amazing things. Things that took gobs of both moral and physical courage as well as ingenuity and sacrifice. Today? I don't know, seems like the national motto might as well be "get yours before someone else does!"

It's painting with a broad brush of course, this is a very large, diverse country. It just seems to my own observations that ever more of us are mean, angry, and distrustful and I'm afraid we're subconsciously collectively trying to solve it by ratcheting all of that up to 11. I mean, you can't even talk football at the water cooler anymore without fear of someone overhearing and being set off by the imagined/implied political ramifications...that's sad to be, we're even ruining our historical blow off valves!

Sorry, off my soapbox now. I just hate seeing how we treat each other in this country today and hope it can be different someday.

EV tech is really cool, in particular battery tech. It's early days, but I suspect we'll see massive breakthroughs over the coming decades. If you had been around to see the state of ICE tech in, say, 1890, you'd never believe where we are today. Hell, if you were looking at ICE tech even in 1950, you might have to make a stretch to see where we are today.

 

[turbo86]

Plants and trees feed on Co2 and produce our life source, oxygen. If we keep reducing Co2 production then we're forcing them to starve. They will slowly shrink and will in turn produce less oxygen. And all of a sudden those "environmental activists" will campaign for an increase in Co2 production to save the forests and our precious oxygen. Which by the way nobody cares about, especially those rich dudes like DiCaprio and businessmen who make millions from exploiting the land that was once forests.

So, i will stick to by "coal burner" and will be trying to produce as much Co2 as a i can. Save as many trees as i can. I'm not even joking. I'm more eco-friendly than any of those "activists".

Hell those guys even claim that nuclear power is eco-friendly. Seriously? Ever heard what they do with nuclear waste? Holy Jesus this thing contaminates the soil and the waters below. It's killing us! Ever seen the huge white clouds coming from these cooling towers? Know what it is? It's water vapor, the most abundant greenhouse gas! Yeah that evil thing that's causing "global warming"! Ever heard of freakin Chernobyl and Fukushima? One error...one freak accident away from nuclear disaster. Come on people get serious...

 

[Cheesenium]

I think once ID3 hits my country, I think I won’t mine buying one as I drive on town more than long distance. The exterior size of a Golf and the interior size of a Passat is extremely tempting. If the IDR in R3E is an extreme indication on how it will drive, I think I’m on board with it as I find IDR to be really addictive to drive.

Other tempting choices are eCorsa or Honda e. Taycan or iPace are completely out of my reach in this life time though but I can’t see a large car being that useful in a urban setting. Tesla? I am not interested in a company that sells cars like a live service video game and aggressively pushing unproven technologies.

If it’s possible, I’ll probably keep a Subaru WRX as a fun car when I got sick of the droning sound of electric motors.

I still think hybrid is the way to go into the future which I felt that the automotive companies are misguided with the public and government hysteria on climate change. Climate change is indisputably real and it’s a massive problem for us collectively. However, I believe in incremental improvements with persistent down sizing of combustion engine, better and lighter materials and a combination of hybrid systems are still better than the drastic and expensive change to electric that requires a massive investment in infrastructure for EV. Lithium ions has really poor energy density compared to petrol which made me quite skeptical with its viability. However, EV has a lot of benefits to consumers such as cheaper to run.

In the context of racing games, I really don’t know how I’ll enjoy a game if half the car list is filled with EV. While IDR is awesome to drive in R3E, the droning sound is quite off putting for a game that has fantastic sounds. The sounds of Formula E in rfactor 2 and FM7 and the EV hillclimb are god awful despite they may be fun to drive for that addictive acceleration.

 

[sjb266]

The sad reality is that population control is the best way to save our planet.

I love electric cars, but they are not going to have a huge impact. As a cyclist, I'd love to ride on roads without exhaust fumes. They will improve the air quality in large cities, but over all our planet is being destroyed because of our population growth.

All we need is 4 billion people to volunteer to give their lives to help the planet.. or just hire Thanos!

 

[wombat999]

Slightly OT but relevant.
At the present the best selling vehicles in Australia are the Ford Ranger and the Toyota Hulux (or Mitsubishi Triton, Nisan something etc), crew cab trucks. Recent figures show their combined market share to be some 70% of new vehicle sales. Ford and Toyota in particular actively promote these as 'Family Vehicles', an absolute crock.
Then we have sales of pre-owned trucks as well as grey imports to add to the new car sales numbers.
Most of these barges clutter up the Urban roads on shopping trips and school runs!
There is a move afoot by the Road Transport Industry (read 'trucking') to have a 'Tax' imposed on EV owners as they do not pay for Hydro Carbon fuels and therefore do not pay a tax on Diesel or Petrol.
Muppets!!!!

 

[ZeldaACFan17]

The things that irk me about electric cars are that there is no noise, there are no gears, and there is almost no way to recharge them in some places.