DYI G-Seat

[Michal Burisin]

So I finally got to the point, where I can start working on the G-Seat.

Here is my latest progress with the rig in general.

What's important for G-Seat part of the project is tactile installation on the seat, which consists of 3 BK Concert + 1 TST 239, so it's pretty powerful tactile, so I must make sure nothing rattles, this will be challenge as there will be many moving parts.

I'm using Kirkey Aluminium Seat, link is here.

I have 17'' version and it fits me like a glove I'm 168 cm, around 66 kg, quite thin with broader shoulders and it's so so, especially with the G-Seat paddles. I'm striving to take around 2,5 cm of space from the internal volume with paddles.

Here is the parts overview:

A) Bottom paddles - with big space between them - I don't want to simulate heave, maybe just a little, but it's intended mainly as pressure from the sides.

B) Main back paddles - narrower gap between to allow for some pressure during acceleration.

C) Additional back paddles for sides - just for thin guys, I made them removable to allow someone with bigger butt to fit in there

I spent day and half measuring etc., here are some images of progress:

Now when I printed it on A3:

And with additional paddle from the side:

I'm really happy it worked so well! I just have to correct 2 lines where the plate would be bent and that's it! I don't need to tweak the shape any more, it fits perfectly!

I will be probably using 4x ASME-04A servos for 4 paddles and 2 for seat belt tensioner.

The servos for bottom paddles will be located on red profiles like pictured below, on these profiles will be also servos for seatbelt fastener.

Servos for back paddles will be mounted to the seat.

The servos axles are goint to be extended by this connection - 8 mm to 12 mm, for 12 mm shafts I use aluminium hollow shaft with 2 mm thick wall.

The shaft will be like 0,5 m long, so at the end, it will be fixed in ball bearing with housing connected to the seat to prevent shaft bending.

Along the way there are going to be 2 points on each shaft with fixed clamp.

 

[Michal Burisin]

So sounds like simfeedback is making tuning easy for the seat?
That feeling might be the car leaving the track, then landing. You've got to try a dirt rally game or one of the dirt cars in iracing, hit some jumps.
Congratulations, it must be like Christmas morning, when you get that toy you were dreaming about getting for months. Enjoy your creation, sounds amazing.
Pair it with the sfx-100 and you'll feel a ton of stuff on track you never felt before. I'm sure with some tuning it would be one of the best diy Sims ever made

Yeah profile setup was very straightforward, really easy software to use with the graphs.

Thanks, it's really early Christmas and also big relief, after so much work, I can finally focus on other things .

Really wondering how much better it can get. I think with VR, it will be just perfect.

 

[thepharcyde]

Amazing

 

[Michal Burisin]

If there is somebody REALLY considering building the G-Seat based on this design, leave me a message with info about your intended build - whether you would like to build it based on the same seat and make it very similar to my build or you want to customise it for other seat or other specific details you want to know.

Based on this info, if there is at least someone who would want to employ this design, I will base my decision in what form and to what depth to share plans for this project.

I'm open to releasing all the details / source files for non-commercial use, I'm just not sure if there is anyone who would want to start this project, that's why I'm asking. It would be not worth it to work on all the details when there would be no one who would be interested.

I think budget might be 3000 to 4000 USD and LOT of work. But maybe there is someone who would be willing to use just general idea and simplify the design, which would be also great for other people and this would be very welcome by me, as it would be great if other people might benefit from my first prototype in some way and it wouldn't end up as just my one build.

 

[AlexN]

Amazing that it all came together and works so well! It sounds like the servos produce much less noise than the stepper motors in the GS-5? It was hard to tell from the video.

The GS-5 can be like living inside a dot matrix printer, at times Oh well. In-ear headphones solve that, I've had to give up on a quiet racing rig.

Edit: also, a big thumbs up on your idea to use two independent seatbelt tensioners so they can coordinate with the seat... great idea.

 

[Philip K]

This is around 25 cm, hard to measure exactly with everything attached . The measurement is up to the back of the seat, not the end of the other 4040 profile.

View attachment 325911

Thanks very much, you’re a gent. I am at early stages of chassis design, so working out all my measurements, I will have some space behind the seat, but just wanted to see if it is enough as a gseat would definitely be part of my plan and I really liked your implementation.

I’m not quite ready to start building a seat just yet, it would be early next year as I have a new car coming first, but the 65 series Kirkey seat is ideal, though not sure if I would move up to the wider 18.5” version. I would fit quite easily in a 17” I reckon, but if the paddles are using up space then I’d rather have a little extra space and pad it to fit than it be too tight.

Happy to keep a watching brief for the moment until I’m ready to go, but the cost certainly wouldn’t put me off. Lots of work to do now to finalise design and speak nicely to the wife to give me a few cad lessons lol

 

[Michal Burisin]

Oh my god, just finished another session and I cannot believe how good it actually is I don't want to brag or anything, just still cannot grasp how strong forces these servos & paddles can actually deliver.

I have tried Watkins Glen which is packed with high speed, high G turns and if I had to estimate, I have currently set it up so it delivers around 40 kg of perceived force on the buttocks and shoulder in fastest turns (long sweeping turn uphill with crazy amounts of grip) which in my case is more than 0,5 G and I might be conservative in my estimate.

I cannot pull these G-Forces in my road car without flipping it over the roof . I think it's capable of delivering even higher forces I'm just not sure if I need or want even more .

Also Watkins Glen is really bumpy so perfect fit for tactile setup. Also Laguna Seca is brutal in that downhill part

 

[Michal Burisin]

Amazing that it all came together and works so well! It sounds like the servos produce much less noise than the stepper motors in the GS-5? It was hard to tell from the video.

The GS-5 can be like living inside a dot matrix printer, at times Oh well. In-ear headphones solve that, I've had to give up on a quiet racing rig.

Edit: also, a big thumbs up on your idea to use two independent seatbelt tensioners so they can coordinate with the seat... great idea.

It's actually completely silent beside some controller high pitched coil whine, but I think I got immune to it by now and don't hear it anymore even when driving with speakers. I just notice it in silent room. In headphones you can't hear it at all.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Thanks very much, you’re a gent. I am at early stages of chassis design, so working out all my measurements, I will have some space behind the seat, but just wanted to see if it is enough as a gseat would definitely be part of my plan and I really liked your implementation.

I’m not quite ready to start building a seat just yet, it would be early next year as I have a new car coming first, but the 65 series Kirkey seat is ideal, though not sure if I would move up to the wider 18.5” version. I would fit quite easily in a 17” I reckon, but if the paddles are using up space then I’d rather have a little extra space and pad it to fit than it be too tight.

Happy to keep a watching brief for the moment until I’m ready to go, but the cost certainly wouldn’t put me off. Lots of work to do now to finalise design and speak nicely to the wife to give me a few cad lessons lol

I'm 30'' to 32'' jeans size, depending on my appetite and 17'' is perfect for me. I'm 168 cm tall. For taller / bigger people, I think 18,5'' size might be better. I'll have to cut out side padding from back cover, as it's too thick. For now, I'm quite comfortable with back on bare paddles, it's not uncomfortable at all, at least for me .

Almost all body contact area with the seat is completely realized by paddles anyway, so if you take the bigger seat, it doesn't matter too much, more important is how you design / place the paddles. With bigger seat you could probably use more retraction of the paddle to the opposite direction than I can with smaller seat. Also you could make the angle of the side paddles around the ribs more "open", I have them at 90 degrees.

When you are ready for the build and you have any questions, let me know

 

[Mr Latte]

Can you give Zandvoort & Imola a try
Also be nice if you place onscreen in AC the Lat G meter and record the seat in action with AI driving and us seeing the panels.

More videos would be good to see.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Can you give Zandvoort & Imola a try
Also be nice if you place onscreen in AC the Lat G meter and record the seat in action with AI driving and us seeing the panels.

More videos would be good to see.

I'll try to figure out AC and its autopilot, not really familiar with it, will have to set up profile for AC too, so I guess I'll have to learn how to drive it, I suck at AC big time, the cars just don't steer or brake for some reason . This will also require some screen capturing and running video in overlay on top of it or other way around. Will probably take me some time to figure it out, but I'll try.

I have driven Zandvoort today and maybe I got tire pressure wrong in GT4 KTM or something, but there was no grip so I was sliding all around the place, so the G-Forces were quite lower and not as crisp as on Watkins Glen where the car felt just like riding on rails in certain turns . I'll try Imola when I have the chance.

 

[manc0ntr0]

Stunning work you made. Very very impressive

 

[Hees]

any update

 

[Michal Burisin]

any update

I pushed the profiles too much and main back shaft at main arm connection slipped.

I originally thought the gearbox and servo connection slipped, so I tried to tighten it more and broke bolt head which got stuck inside gearbox Really long story and lot of work to figure it out, but I hope I managed to solve it. I used friction paste on servo shaft / gearbox connection - so I hope it won't get inside the servo or gearbox, which would probably ruin it... It's impossible to see what's going on inside the gearbox once it's mounted. I should have checked how it got spread...

Also I created this mini-key to fit inside the clamp gap.

Only later I figured out, the slip happened elsewhere, so I did all this probably for nothing, as the gearbox to servo shaft was probably strong enough... I think I over-tightened the clamp bolts, but I'm too afraid to touch it now... The gearboxes will be either fine or ruined in longer term / or short term .

Now I'm working on better attachment of the arms to aluminium shaft.

I have something in the works to figure it out, if it won't help, I'll go for steel, but I think it will be probably ok, at least for some time.

I'm not sure if it is good for someone else to follow my steps exactly, lot of things can be simplified...

Also there is not much interest in the build, which is quite understandable, I think it's just you and one more who will be building g-seat next year. So I think I will handle all the info / resources on demand at the moment. Just ask what would you like to know, and I'll try to help you.

It all depends what your plans are, it mainly depends on that, whether you want to try to copy my build exactly, or you will modify it to your needs, let me know and we figure something out.

Also I think I'll need to do some more longer term testing, there might be some design flaws, that might lead to components breaking. The forces involved with more aggressive settings are very high, I have started using "side flaps" around ribs and I think it increased the load on back paddles like 5 - 10 times than before, but feels really good

 

[Michal Burisin]

There should be no slip anymore

 

[asteroulis]

Also there is not much interest in the build, which is quite understandable, I think it's just you and one more who will be building g-seat next year. So I think I will handle all the info / resources on demand at the moment. Just ask what would you like to know, and I'll try to help you.

It all depends what your plans are, it mainly depends on that, whether you want to try to copy my build exactly, or you will modify it to your needs, let me know and we figure something out.

Michal I see a lot of reasons that there are not many people asking for the plans.
- People are overwhelmed by the technical complexity, you have raised the bar too high for a diy project
- The cost is understandably high.
- Maybe they don't want to disappoint you if they ask for it and finally don't do it
- they currently don't have the time / money to start a project like this

Yet, I think we can all agree it's a magnificent project, the detail, time, effort is unparalleled to other diy sim racing projects (well except mayaman's 911 simulator), and it has great potential to become the next sfx100. Not to replace, but fill the gaps that are missing for the ultimate diy motion rig.

So imho, (even though I don't see me having the ability to get projects like this running any soon in my life) I would say that if you have the ability to document/simplify the design and create a detailed guide that people can order and assemble parts sfx100 style then you will be offering great service to the community. You have a gift that it's up to you how you want to share and to what extend. Others would commercialise this product, others would just keep it for themselves. But you are willing to share your know how. Look what @saxxon66 did there. He took this so complicated project and made it so simple to make. That would be the best way to go from here. Simplify the design, and manufacture process.
And your name will be written in gold letters, in our sim racing history...

 

[Michal Burisin]

Michal I see a lot of reasons that there are not many people asking for the plans.
- People are overwhelmed by the technical complexity, you have raised the bar too high for a diy project
- The cost is understandably high.
- Maybe they don't want to disappoint you if they ask for it and finally don't do it
- they currently don't have the time / money to start a project like this

Yet, I think we can all agree it's a magnificent project, the detail, time, effort is unparalleled to other diy sim racing projects (well except mayaman's 911 simulator), and it has great potential to become the next sfx100. Not to replace, but fill the gaps that are missing for the ultimate diy motion rig.

So imho, (even though I don't see me having the ability to get projects like this running any soon in my life) I would say that if you have the ability to document/simplify the design and create a detailed guide that people can order and assemble parts sfx100 style then you will be offering great service to the community. You have a gift that it's up to you how you want to share and to what extend. Others would commercialise this product, others would just keep it for themselves. But you are willing to share your know how. Look what @saxxon66 did there. He took this so complicated project and made it so simple to make. That would be the best way to go from here. Simplify the design, and manufacture process.
And your name will be written in gold letters, in our sim racing history...

Yeah, I totally understand why there are not many people taking interest in this to a point of starting the build.

Like 2 months ago, it looked like, it could be quite easy to build, but it's just getting more and more complicated. For example I have no idea what off the shelf part could connect main servo arm to the 12 mm shaft. I think there might be torque of 40 - 50 Nm at that main arm at moments spiking very quickly.

It might be because I'm pushing the profiles / forces too much, but I don't want to compromise on that High G-Forces really add lot to the mix, for example every time I'm approaching some hard corner under full throttle, like Eau Reuge, it makes me really anxious and while going through, it makes me grit my teeth Before, even with quite good tactile, it felt quite "flat" and not that engaging, this is just something I haven't experienced before but I don't have much experience with motion rigs so I cannot say how much G-Seat would add to another motion, but I just cannot imagine fun factor on SFX100 with DD wheel and VR .

Regarding the slipping I got, at first, I thought those 2 clamps with added hole and thread to dig into the shaft would be enough, but it still slipped.

So I have added another hole through with other solutions (friction paste, another screw drilled through the shaft and digging into the inside diameter of the shaft, etc.) to strengthen the connection. I'm now sure it won't slip, but just to do all this drilling, making threads etc. and attaching everything back to seat took me like 5 hours, so I think it got even more complicated and I'm pretty sure not many people would want to spend evenings like that .

Also I think I will have to move to steel shafts eventually, because these aluminium ones will probably get worn out - they will bend / break at one point. But using steel shafts might lead to another challenges, with this prototype with aluminium shafts I managed to solve the design I would like to use on steel shafts, but I will have to probably change it little bit, but then I hope steel shafts will last lifetime

If I wanted to try to streamline it and make it more accessible, I would have to start over. It would be just too much work / money invested with very uncertain outcome at the moment.

This makes me realize even more how brilliant work @saxxon66 did with SFX-100. To make almost anything is quite possible if you throw a lot of time and money at it, but to make it easy to build like SFX-100, that's just completely another story.

I think some DYI project for G-Seat, that is more accessible will be realized at some point, but I'm not sure this design is way to go. I think it's great, but just too complicated. Maybe someone will come and improve it or take completely another approach, but that remains to be seen

 

[Michal Burisin]

So the main servo arm is moving, that means the bolt through main shaft is twisting sideways expanding its hole, so next stop steel... really starting to get tiring, but I think I'm quite close to the finish once this is done, but will be lot of work again

When I'm at it, I'll switch bottom shafts also to steel even though they have been solid so far...

 

[Hees]

Don’t lose it now, you are so close to finish a master piece that will be developed and tweaked, because of your great brilliant work.

 

[Hees]

wondering about any update plz dont fade this project is amazing

 

[Michal Burisin]

wondering about any update plz dont fade this project is amazing

Sorry for no updates lately, been quite busy and all free time I got went into racing little bit and building SFX.

The steel shafts solved my problem. Since I installed them them, it has been solid without further slipping. So from my point of view, the project is done I still need to install steel shafts on the bottom - aluminium ones started to slip.

But it's not very DYI friendly as SFX100 is, lot of work involved, now even more with the steel shafts which required drilling and making threads into them (maybe not necessary but I wanted to be sure it will hold).

As I said before, if you are interested in this project, let me know your plans and I'll try to help you as much as I can. I won't be doing any public documentation as I think there's no point at the moment. I'll be posting info on demand.

I have done some 4 - 5 hours long sessions and it seems to be holding really good. Some quiet cracking noises developed in the seat and little bit of squeak somewhere, but quite minor - it would be annoying without headphones, but that is not issue for me as I always wear them. Maybe I would get used to it or if I turned up the volume from speakers.

The cracking noises were in the seat before, but now there are more forces on it, so it's cracking more often even with little forces / slight movements.

Other than that, it is really perfect and lot of fun First couple of sessions I had sore back (I mean spine) as I use quite high forces and the paddles are shoving me quite a lot with erractic movements for example crashing, or tracks with high G-Forces or with chicanes where you change directions very quickly etc.

I also got sore muscles from this and also from strong seatbelt tensioner, but as muscles got used to this stress the back pain gone. Muscles are still sore sometimes, but this will eventually go away.

It gives great feedback what car is doing and provides more info about how much grip I have, traction loss etc., but as the forces are quite high it makes me less precise, but that's the price I'm willing to pay for more immersion and it is more realistic.