Buttkicker advice

[signman]

Have a LFE fullsize waiting to bolt under my Tillet B4 seat.

Would additional Advancer or mini LFE be best choice ?
My rig is pretty hefty4 5-90 ally Profile.

I was thinking Inuke DSP3000 for the big LFE or would it require the 6000DSP ?

Tried to contact Mr Latte but no joy.

Appreciate any advice

Paul

 

[Mr Latte]

Just a post in reference to some previous PM we had and for linking here possible options for cables, etc. It may be of use to future readers that come along. Below I share options I think are good but you may decide on different. Spent a couple of hours looking around at different brands etc.

Chassis Mode Soundcard
Asus Xonar DGX (PCI Express)
I assume you have the PCI socket on your motherboard. This card is a very popular choice and known to work well in Simvibe. Not expensive around £30 or less. Not had any issues with the one I have used.


You may want a USB card later to use it as the primary audio soundcard when using both CM & EM and having game audio over speakers rather than say your Oculus Rift.


Extension Mode Soundcard
Many people use their onboard soundcard from the motherboard for EM usage.


Audio Primary Soundcard
Possible USB Options for EM (Also Using Or Mixing Audio Tactile With Simvibe Tactile)
Creative Soundblaster Omni
Creative SoundBlaster SBX (included remote)
Budget Option






Cables


3.5mm Jack MALE - XLR 2x MALE
These to connect from PC soundcards to the iNuke amps.
You need 3 of these cables for current plans of using CM & EM

Very cheap ones from ebay etc are not recommended. Decent ones seem to be in the £10-£20 price point. I've seen some lovely ones at higher prices but really do not see the benefit in purchasing. Depends on the length you go for also, in how far your PC may be from the amps but expect a 2-3 meter cable is likely suitable. One of the best I've seen for under £10 are these They look just as good as this Neutrik option costing approx twice as much.


Speakon Adapter
You need 6 of these to connect to your speaker cable for the iNuke amps.
Consider the 2 Pole or 4 Pole option, many people buy the 4 pole but note they can accept different sizes/thickness of cables. Neutrik 2 Pole or Neutrik 4 Pole. We can discuss this more depending on what type of speaker cable you opt for.





Speaker Cable & Cable Management / How Far You Want To Go?
Don't know what lengths you need and if you just want a budget and simple option like this also available in longer run here. This way it dont get much easier.

I am currently looking more into options part towards my own build so happy to share here. This includes the termination of the cables with nice heat shrink and sheathing. It's possible to buy coloured or stylish sheathing. For example grey that would match in well with the 80/20 or options with flexible plastic conduit to contain the cables.

Some guys make really cool, professional looking cables and its possible to do this with a bit of d.i.y and what seems rather simple skills. Really depends on how nice/professional you want things or what interest you have for the cables? This may not be important to you or if you are considering a base platform that we discussed to be used like a stylish plinth for the rig as this could hide cabling anyways. Really depends on what you want to do friend.

I think their are many d.i.y possibilities if this is a route youd like to go.

Personally, for me I'd like to install a nice AV wallplate on the rig like I showed previously with professional terminations, a bit like these below as just think it looks the dogs danglies and I've not seen a cockpit to date attempt to have such attention to detail ...

Example of d.i.y cables (interesting to watch with nice beats)



Speaker Cables / Multi Core
VanDamme Cables.
Option here for "Tour Grade" cables (good thick insulation) with standard or Multicore cable options.

See HERE for Metric MM2 - AWG for cable ratings.

The (2.5mm 14 AWG) seems to be ideal but we can confirm of this is the option you consider.
4 Core 6 Core or 8 Core are available. One ebay supplier HERE

I will also look and learn to understand this better and the options of d.i.y cabling as well. As there are other alternatives and is useful learning for my own rig anyways.


.

 

[signman]

Holy smokes ..THIS IS AMAZING !!!!

Off to make a brew and 'good' read.

Thank you Mr Latte

 

[Mr Latte]

Enjoy...

Perhaps with the BK Advance its possible that it may support thinner 2mm Banana Plug terminals?
I recall it having smaller cable connection clamp system. Although again not seen people perhaps go to such bother or detail/concern. Most may just insert the bare cable at the end of the run going into the actual Buttkicker.

These or other plastic options are available on ebay etc
HERE or HERE or HERE as possible examples

Just ideas...






Possible Cable Connectivity Path

From iNuke Amp:
Speakon connector on output - cable distance - installed wallplate on cockpit - cable connected by 4mm banana plug termination.

From 7.1 type wallplate to Buttkicker unit:
Wallplate underside - inserted cable - cable length - 2mm Banana termination for BK Advance.

HERE is a link to a company that makes many Dolby 7.1 Style Wallplates.
Takes shopping around if you decide you may want to incorporate such.

If you want to look at Speakon options then just say I will highlight these. It would, however, be more work and more costly to have a panel on the cockpit with multiple Speakon terminals and then these all soldered.

Also may be more expensive to have multiple Speakon Couplers used and then also purchased the additional Speakon connectors required when pricing your options.

 

[Mr Latte]

We shared some discussion via PM on vibration dampening and isolation.

Will post a few links here on options and update this post later.
I do think its going to be wise for you to test the cheap options you already have purchased and many of the typical types found on ebay. Buttkicker ones are quite good for their size.

Lets see how well they do with this level of energy you will be able to generate. You are going to be pumping out much more energy than typical tactile units like ADX or Mini lfe. I will even be willing to loan/ship you over 4x T300 models as I have several in storage if you are willing to return and cover postage.

I found early on that these all can produce rather different amounts of tactile energy.
You may find it worthwhile to test different isolation options.




This to help see the difference in sizes of
Buttkicker - T100 - T200 - T300 isolators, what will keep the tactile best in your seat and pedal sections? T200 & T300 have substantial metal plates in bottom. What is sufficient? Shaker Center sell the T200 model with variations to the weight/load being applied. See the RDB models HERE .





For isolation/dampening beyond the T300 model you are then going to industrial springs for anti-vibration control.

More options
Some interesting products give it a click Including this one

Annnnnnnd also HERE
See the sandwich version, looks rather interesting.

How you determine your build and the quality of isolation it has will be a big factor to how good your general tactile immersion will be. Many people may just go out and buy the cheapest or most basic isolators, bolt them in place and that's it. Not do alternative tests or installations to discover what improves the tactile or may be best. I can't tell you what to do but I can recommend what I think you should try or consider with such potential this build can have.


I look forward to what you may do but really interested to see if you put in the effort to try more than one option with the intent of finding a really well-working solution. Do not overlook spending a bit extra money here as isolation can bring a great deal of performance in maintaining the tactile energy where you want it.

 

[signman]

Which isolator do you recommend knowing what you do already about my rig ?

My 50mm dia x 40mm height seem very weedy after looking at some of those you mention !

 

[Mr Latte]

Considering what your seat may contain the term "weedy" may prove to be accurate?

Seat:
2x Advance Rear CM
1x Advance EM @ back section of seat (optional)
1x BK LFE (Specific effects low frequencies enhancement)

This has the potential for very high-end tactile immersion if well installed and configured but also producing lots of energy with low-end frequencies being deployed from various effects.

I can't say without you trying what may be the ideal choice. With 80/20 however, you have ways to build and implement this better than other pre-built rigs.

The more the energy is maintained prior to the isolation then the more it will dissipate through the seat and into your body. Therefore being more efficient and better sustained where it is felt. This then generally means less wattage is also needed from the amps and the tactile not overstressed or strained, so they maintain their composure better too. Good isolation brings this, poor isolation or unit installation will have the user likely crank the volume close to max and have the tactile unit being overworked.

It's about preventing tactile energy leaking all over the frame, going to parts of the cockpit where it won't even be felt. When you try one option then try another expected to be better and it indeed turns out to improve things then it's worthwhile. Yet if you just go with the first idea and simple basic isolation then how do you know what your missing in potential benefits or better performance?

I tested 3 installations with my own but know even better is possible with a new rebuild and things I learned with different tests using the chrome steel tubing I use.

If you had an 80/20 section the full length under the seat runners with perhaps 4x Buttkicker type isolators each side that's 8 of those for the seat. Do the 8 of those perform better than 4 of the T200 or 4 T300 or some of those other options offer. That is the question that only testing will answer and it's always easy to sell what you end up not using on members market or ebay etc.

We can apply other rubber material layers but these are just secondary isolation, going into the floor etc. So yes take some time to consider and discuss on what the primary isolation will be what you want to try.

 

[DesKane]

Great thread ......... Loving the idea of next level cable management. Will need to research. Currently have soldered high grade speaker from BK Advance to 4 pole speak on plug, Speakon Coupler to then speak on cable to rear of Amp ....... x6 times, all nice and neatly running tidy under the rig, and boxed away in custom made corner rig unit....... but I like these mutli 7.1 units.
Hmmmm getting me thinking of an upgrade

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah you already have good cabling Des, the "Speakon Couplers" are great to easily connect/disconnect for the BK Mini / Gamer as they already have an installed short cable that needs to be joined/extended. Most other tactile do not have a pre-wired connection but will accept bare cable (you know this) but just saying for others. The AV plate option maybe looks cool too but don't think you would gain anything in performance, maybe only in practicality and style.

The AV Wallplate idea would be great for someone that is moving their rig from time to time. If also doing such with a "Multicore Cable" then it could be only 1 single cable from the multiple amps to the rig to connect and not a cable for each tactile unit. The user would simply grab the cable and connect the banana plugs and done, not have a mess of cables to untangle or even if always stationary 1 cable is much cleaner than 6 or 8 cables.

Just offering up ideas and possible solutions to building an amazing cockpit. Some of these are ideas I had for a long time but can't implement into my own build with parts in storage. So for me is exciting to share and see others maybe consider or include.

 

[Mr Latte]

@signman

Just to give some more info on previous tests I did with my own often changing test rig. This is to help you make decisions on what way to consider how/where to install the units you have.


Last year I compared having a BK-LFE at the base of my rig directly below the uprights of my seat on the left hand side. My test frame currently comprises of independent L/R sections to better help determine effects operating in stereo. The vibrations of this would go into the main frame of the cockpit across its full length but also into the uprights of the seat and into the seat runners bolted to the seat.

When I tested this yes I could feel the power and energy the LFE had but I could even feel it up in the pedal area 3-4ft away albeit with less force of course. I had a 2nd unit installed on the right-hand side but instead of the same, it was attached to a plate section, connected to triple tubing and going into mounts that were directly bolted under the seat rails.

So to recap, right was directly connected with solid contact to the seat and the left installed under the seat connected to the main frame but also to the seat uprights of about 8" high.

Here it quickly became apparent how one unit felt better than the other. Yet also that the left unit was needing much more wattage to try and equal what the right unit was producing. The other issue was that by increasing the wattage more and more to feel the deepest effects better then the leakage going through the rest of the frame was also increasing and the units were under quite a lot of strain. Not only this but in doing such with the high wattage, more leakage across the whole frame the vibration noise going into the floor of the house (even with good isolators under the rig) was like a train in the living room.

What I propose is that a good amount of thought is put into trialing more than one option, find but build/test solutions to discover which improve the point of contact and flow the tactile has to where the user will feel it. This cannot be achieved only by pretty CAD or diagrams, such needs tested.

Do this and you will avoid a whole frame being subjected to high volume wattages, wasting energy and causing much more vibration/noise than needed. 80/20 is perfect for this as its so adaptable, the rest is down to imagination, creativity, and willingness to discover.

Are you after something pretty good or the best it can be?

 

[signman]

Best it can be Mr. Latte..preferably using my Advance and LFE / DSP amp's at this stage.

If I'm not happy with the result's we can achieve then bring other unit's in for testing.
Same goes for isolation.

I'm not too concerned about neat and tidy cable's right now.
Once I am happy with the setup then I would make everything pretty later.

Noise is only an issue with regard speaker's late at night.
But I'd be happy just using the headphones on the Rift if late.



I'm actually off work and plan to get stuff ordered today !
Just looking at option's now actually . ;-0)

 

[Mr Latte]

We can do things others have not, no shortage of creativity friend....

Basic cabling now for testing is all you need, we have ways of going beyond what Simvibe offers in standard usage or installation and maximise the units you purchased.

I am not convinced with CM & EM in pedals is necessary or how you can make 3 BK Advance all fill a role in just a pedal section or typical installation people use with the pedals you own.

Having the pedals hanging would help from a perspective of including EM and using CM in the base heel sections but most people seem to have them floor mounted.

 

[Mr Latte]

Have a feeling someone, bought one of these earlier today, wonder who?
When you reach 48 seconds play it with 0.25 speed if wanting to be a geek and "freq" out.

 

[Mr Latte]

No updates or anything in almost 2 months, all this help and you leave folk hanging lol...
Another dead thread it seems....

 

[signman]

No update because NOTHING to report.

Business before pleasure as they say !

Family holiday, business to run and finally managed to paint my guttering and fascia's on the house.
Rig will get done when I have a chance and funds to finish.

 

[GTV Zeratul]

If I may drop in with two questions.

I'm now running a big LFE kit of the audio and want to go the SimVibe route.
What I would want is the big LFE as engine, gear change, wind and impact. Then ad four smaller transducers for each wheel/suspention.

Q1: What would you recomend mini-LFE or Gamer?
Q2: Is there another brand of trandusers of similar quality that I could look into as ButtKicker is very expensive over here?

Thanks GTV Zeratul.

Edit: All will be mounted on a DIY steel tube rig.

 

[Mr Latte]

I created a "General Tactile Thread" for peoples questions/topics to avoid other peoples threads getting interrupted. Will respond from there to you on above.