Really impressed with the work you did on the tubing and frame Michal, excellent work you really went to town on that. Going by your feedback it clearly has removed the issue you originally had with the metal tubing and main frame of the cockpit making ringing or reverb sounds.
With the shape of your cockpit, it looked to be a lot of work indeed as you expressed in the time you put into it. Wow, that's determination and dedication.
This would be so much simpler for those with 8020 rigs and I believe they too could experiment a little with these types of materials and make gains. I want to re-read again more of the things you asked or queried and will get back when I have more time (soon).
With all the materials you applied to the frame it may help what vibrations now travel into the floor section you have and are considering to use with its own isolation or further materials. It comes down to testing to see how well the isolators you have, help to maintain the tactile energy still in the seat/pedal platforms they support. My concern was not to kill or tail off the felt energy in the main seat and pedal areas, just beneath them.
Multiple Tactile
Having multiple units, especially the ones you're considering then that is a LOT of tactile energy. The truth is we can look at different isolation options but nobody really (yet) has done sufficient comparisons. Certainly not with a (bench test platform) to help determine what or how each (isolator product) performs or what combination of materials can bring the best level of isolation-performance/price ratio. Got to admit discovering that is something I have a bit of a fascination to one day start doing. I've had previous testing and experience by all means and feedback from many I helped over the years but this is also something I seek to learn more from in the coming of my own new build.
Testing Isolators
I like the look of that canted isolator you have on the pedals but also curious about the sandwich models too. Do think having a small amount of flex for rebound and then a firmer more solid rubber isolation will improve the tactile. I believe the initial rebound will help to increase the dispersion/energy of the tactile in the isolated platform acting like a mechanical lever with having a limited/controlled amount of flex.
Possibilities here are rubber dampening pads, under the isolators like those I have shown on the forums. Having some of the STP but underneath the isolator on the seat sliders or main frame section. Not on the isolated platform.
More Than One Solution?
The compressed wood may cause some reverb itself. This might be reduced with a small amount of the materials you have stuck underneath but my concern is not to deaden the isolated sections as this may reduce the felt tactile vibrations in them. Buttkciker etc usually state that solid timbers can perform better. Err but how much better than what you have, worthwhile better?
For pedals, I would of installed the BK under the heel section and the TST making more connection with the pedal stems themselves. Something like that brings the tactile from both the base and pedals that will combine together in each.
General Waffle & Ideas
However, if you are considering more tactile then we should discuss how the best way is to perhaps have in your cockpit with at least 4x tactile. These potentially being (Cen = Dual Role + Left & Right) work together and perform best in a small section like the pedals/footrest area.
I have some surprises in what I will do on my own rig here, stuff not seen before. I have tested brief mockups that show encouragement but not properly tested in a full build. However what I will say is each pedal can be better used if individually isolated to help increase the stereo positioning of bumps but still enable effects like engine and other mono effects to originate or form first and more within the base platform.
Serious Thought On - Where How Why?
I look at this in the perspective of "what is the role of the individual tactile unit", "what effects is it likely to have", "what is going to be that tactile units primary point of contact", "how to best direct the energy flow through this point of contact first". The energy will combine with the other tactile energy from the individual channels or effects but this can work to improve what we detect or feel from tests I've done.
Considerations For High End Tactile / Experimentation
My view is for pedals its possible to have isolated pedals on an isolated platform but with a clever configuration in how they are mounted. To enable greater control and delivery for the "purpose" of each unit and its "effects". We cant prevent all the channels and effects mixing completely nor do we want to but we can control their original point of contact and travel, in what they go through first. For me, I want to limit a left bump more to my left foot and pedal and likewise a right bump more to my right foot and pedal. What I will also say to you is that its possible to have the contact of this "stereo" tactile also go into the calves of our legs. For me this is easy to implement with the tubing I have but we do not need to waste the energy only by limiting it to our heels and bottom of our feet. Likewise, I have also tested a temp extension from my seat section that makes contact with rear left/right tactile units energy. This is being directed under my knees in stereo for each leg. It enhances the detection and immersion of the effect and will be implemented into my new build for sure.
Body Regions
Keep in mind what I have said in past, regards using "body regions" the more we can introduce (in a sensible way) the more we can inject tactile into specific body areas. Not just to have more, but to deliver specific effects into different areas to have a different point of "first contact" and direction of their energy to flow. With this, it helps highlight an individual effects delivery to a sensitive body region the brain will easily register.
An example of this would be for you to compare how you have your TST underneath compared to how it would feel if its original point of contact was with the spine or lower back. What Im discovering and still experimenting with if using multiple tactile is that having all the tactile come from one place/direction or basically having the same way to travel limits the potential of what we can feel. Mainly as by the time some of our body regions nerves/tissue etc feel them they are already mixed together. This is also the factor we want to avoid in my view with pedals. Yet nearly everybody sticks multiple tactile onto a single base platform in which each unit and its effects will be mixed with no flow of control of each effect being considered.
Many rigs have tactile installed on the 4 corners representing the wheels. This also in my view is very flawed. As again the user is letting the tactile unit's energy freely flow into parts of a cockpit and not only losing energy but once again not making use of determining the path the tactile has to go. In doing that we also have the energy going places we wont even feel it, so it's not very efficient use of the tactile energy. This we can do with direct mounting and to bring the main force of the energy to where it should or indeed we want it to be more felt.
I hope this makes sense...
Will follow up later on your other queries. Interesting chatting and seeing your progress, this is your rig afterall so as always its your call what you do or do not do.
Thanks, I really went little bit Hulk style on the isolation part, but for me it was definitely worth it
Main parts that should get tactile (pedals / seat) are suspended on antivibration mounts, so I think nothing is dampened directly inside those parts. Some tactile energy is definitely leaking outside - when set high the wheel desk starts to shake pretty violently
This will be solved via secondary suspension - whole rig will be suspended on top of the wooden board.
Flanged mounts - I have went too stiff with these (max. load 69 kg), when 4x of these are used together, it's way too stiff. It might be good in softer versions, but I will go with the other types.
UU Shear mounts - I like these, as they provide isolation for up & down movement which is exactly right for buttkickers big impacts. I will probably use 8x of these to suspend the N1 above wooden board. And also 4x of these to suspend pedals.
These are pretty resistant to this line of force:
For pedals, I will be making platform for inverted setup:
As these isolators are resistant to front to back pressure, I think they are good option for pedals in my opinion. However with stiffer pedals, there will be certainly lot of flex added to the pedal travel as there will be also up & down movement in isolators when brake pedal is pressed hard. I think this flex is very repeatable and I think it won't hurt my driving with my current level of driving ability.
For advanced drivers it might be problem.
I have 4x 50 kg version. I will either go for 43 kg or 25 kg versions or some combination.
Sandwich mounts - the sandwich mounts work great for seat. I have one rated to 95 kg, but it's very soft in lateral movement. When tactile is active it's work is nicely visible, in specs they say it can be loaded in compression, shear or a combination of both by fitting at an angle. So I hope I wont tear them apart with repeated heavy braking, only time will tell. Under heavy breaking it also makes the seat travel backward aprox. 0,5 cm, but I don't feel it.
Hopefully soon I will be able to do some video.
Multiple Tactile
It's definitely a lot of tactile
But from what I see how good the isolators are working, I believe I can reduce almost all if not really all the energy going into the floor, at least to that extent that it won't bother neighbours below me.
Proper testing is great idea, however it would get costly really quickly. I'm trying to get the fastest way to the best results and I will report on that, even with this attitude the mistakes are unavoidable - as I did with Flanged mounts. With purposely trying various solutions a lot of materials would get thrown out eventually.
For me the biggest issue is now starting to be noise and not the vibration as I believe I have this part figured out.
The noise issue I believe would be best addressed by professional solution, for examle
here. However it's price is starting around 100 EUR per square meter, which would add up to around 4000 EUR for the room I'm considering, and that only for floor & ceiling and 2 walls.
So until when I'll have that kind of money and I'm prepared to spend them on this, I will have to keep the volume down - mostly the TSTs now causing the biggest noise.
Testing Isolators
I will try to prepare video soon to give you idea how these are working.
I think rubber pads under isolators are unnecessary, if more isolation is needed in that part, I would opted for softer isolator.
STP under something heavy (seat / pedals) won't work, as I believe the bitumen would eventually give away and get spread away from under isolator.
More than one solution
The setup under the seat and pedals is temporary. For pedals new section design see this image:
The TST would be sending vibrations directly to pedal arms with BK in the front, what do you think?
I'm still deciding whether to go for much higher density MDF compared to spruce which is used now. Or whether to go full metal. So far I'm inclining to MDF. Even TSTs have most mounting options described into the wood so it can't be that bad.
For metal, I'm not sure if it wouldn't introduce some ringing / reverbs. It might be okay with plates for example 0,5 cm thick. What would you choose - 2 cm MDF or 0,5 cm metal?
However for now I will stick to temprary solution under seat I have which works good so far.
I still need to figure out whether to go for seat mover Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3, or Prosimu and move the whole rig. Right now, when I'm doing this quite complicated tactile setup, it seems to me, it won't work with NLR so well, as I would need to carry 4x tactile units just attached to the seat and its slim mounting which I think is crazy
I will probably focus on tactile right now and possibly save up over years for 4x separate actuators solution and in the meantime go for smaller projects as dedicated traction loss and possibly G-Seat.
Going 4x actuators, beside other advantages is also better, that I could lock down seat tactile setup and then I wouldn't have to change it completely when going seat mover which brings lot of limitations with respect to tactile in my eyes.
General Waffle & Ideas
I'm really interested what you will come up with
How are you progressing with your build? When can we expect some initial teasers?
Serious Thought On - Where How Why?
As I said previously, I'm also having this point of view - at least my brain has, so many effects doesn't work for me because they feel unrealistic.
For me it's quite simple.
Seat + pedals dual role setup - engine + shifts, front braking.
4 channels for separate wheels bumps and that's probably it. At least from the point of view I have now. All other effects didn't work for my brain pulling me out of immersion.
I would like to have additional tactile unit(s) for wheel, as engine effects feel great in hands. I haven't seen this in other rigs - maybe their isolation is not as strong and the vibrations travel also to the wheel. I feel it little in the hands on my rig, but way too weak and I would like more.
Considerations For High End Tactile / Experimentation
I have been also thinking about this, but in the end I think left / right separation in car is also done only by wheels serving as contact points and then it's all mixed up in the whole car chassis, so I think going for this advanced setup (pedals separation etc.) might bring more immersion and be better sensed but might go further from the realism than closer to it.
The difference is that tactile units are mounted closer to the body and I think I will try to address this by adding latency presented to each wheel, based on how far is the driver located from each wheel. And maybe I will try to extend these tactile units further away from the body on some stiff extension arms.
For this, software with fully individual wheel separation will be neccessity.
Same goes for me for contact points under calves etc., in car these are also free in space and just receiving vibrations from pedal they're pressing and heel, which is good enough for me. I'm really sensitive to thinks that doesn't add up to the reality even though they might be more immersive.
I will wait how you implement these and see if I will possibly try it in future.
Body Regions
I will be experimenting with different mounting position, but acrylic bucket is very limiting, I'm not sure if any tactile unit can be mounted directly to it and not create whole lot of mess.
I view mixing tactile in some part and then travelling to the body as realistic for my usage - just engine and bumps, it works the same way in car.
As you are trying to simulate acceleration - front and lateral, wheel slip and other effects it might be more important to have very defined paths for tactile to travel.
For my seat setup with the engine effect it works perfectly as in real life, the vibrations are coming from the bottom of the seat - first contact point back of the legs and travelling upward - works great for TST. Buttkicker is behind the seat, and it's connected to the same base, I don't feel much difference to TST which is mounted directly under the seat, so this works perfectly for me so far.
Thanks for lengthy reply, lot of ideas for me to consider!
