Build Report: Tactile Immersion in Motion

I'd just built what seemed to me the perfect immersive racing platform. What had started off as a modest attempt to dust off an old hobby had turned into something of an obsession -- messy, mismatched, and ridiculously inadequate at first, but now finally coming together.

After years of disuse, I'd pulled an old Thrustmaster wheelstand, wheel base, and pedal set out of the basement, plopped it down in front of a large screen television, sat myself in a comfy chair and gone racing.

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I'd had an on-again-off-again interest in SIM racing since the early nineties, culminating in the release of GP Legends, which I'd played with a wheel bolted to my computer desk. That's about as far as I'd gotten in terms of hardware. But even I could recognize that this whole setup left a lot to be desired. It was of course annoying to have the stand slide out from under my feet under even light braking, to have only minimum feedback from the wheel and no resistance from the pedals, and to endure the 60Hz television refresh rate. I was having fun, but wanted more. So I started out on a project that I thought had reached its pinnacle before this thread even starts.

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Over the course of the next four of five months, I took a jagged path through a stand just rigid enough to support a direct drive wheel, a better chair that still had to be strapped to the stand once I added a hydraulic brake pedal, eventually forcing a decision to build an 80/20 cockpit, install a proper racing seat, add a motion platform, belt myself in, and put on a VR headset. It was everything I had imagined it could possibly be and was responding beautifully to my efforts to dial it in.

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Then, on a whim, I decided to try out one of those Buttkicker Gamer2 packages. I honestly thought it was a gimmick and didn't expect it to add much to the immersive experience. Even so, despite my already low expectations, I found it singularly unimpressive. Almost every other step I'd taken in this process had not only shown promise, but delivered a substantially improved experience. This thing just did nothing for me at all. I sent it back almost immediately.

Still, the idea of adding tactile stimuli made sense to me. Although that specific product in that particular configuration on my individual platform had not delivered, I couldn't stop turning over in my head that it could be done right and in a way that wouldn't just add a bit of rumbling noise, but would complement the immersive experience of motion and VR. I soon discovered the exhaustive tactile immersion tread and began a correspondence with @Mr Latte that has transformed my thinking about what it should be possible to achieve. Without his guidance, I'm sure I would have given up on this idea.

This thread will chronicle my efforts integrating tactile stimuli on my platform. It may take me a while to cover everything, but here's the plan: After describing my starting point and some of its idiosyncrasies, I'll outline my objectives, general philosophy, specific hardware choices, challenges I've faced and solutions discovered for isolating the 80/20 frame and motion platform while conducting stimuli to the body, explore a few dead ends that haven't worked for me but may be instructive for others, and finally look at software configuration and tuning, which I've only just begun to explore.

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Since I now have all the tactile effects running through the audio workstation, I decided it was time to use that to control and not just visualize the signals. So I removed the crossovers and equalizer settings from the Behringer DSP, turned of EQ APO and began experimenting with the FabFilter Pro-Q 3 plugin with the following results:

All Buttkicker LFEs are now configured as shown here:

LFE_EQ (3).png


The Clark TST 329 is configured as shown here. I'm not yet convinced that I need to be dropping off the low end show sharply, so may revert to the same high pass filter settings used on the LFEs.

TST_EQ (3).png


And, finally, all of the Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 units are configured as shown here:

EXC_EQ.png


You'll note that the DAEX exciters have a sharper and lower low pass filter applied. This is because they tend to waste a lot of energy making noise above 250 Hz.

For the moment, I'm using the dynamic EQ feature. But, if I'm honest, that's less because it seems to improve the response and more because it has been fun to play with and especially to watch. As pretty as these pictures are, it's more interesting to see them in action, so I will try to post some videos in my next update.
 
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Here is a rough lap around Brands Hatch in ACC with the Porsche GT3R. I'm driving in a small window while watching the EQ and trying to record, so please no comments on the racing line.

Buttkicker LFE behind the left rear of the seat

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
18 Hz to 3 Hz​
20 km/h to 70%​
Gamma 1.25​
18 Hz to 6 Hz​
85 km/h to 200 km/h​
Gamma 0.80​
12 Hz to 6 Hz​
120 km/h to 200 km/h​
Gamma 0.40​
12 Hz to 24 Hz​
140 km/h to 100%​
Gamma 0.75​
RPM
None​

Gear Shift
6 Hz​
Duration 180 ms​
Delay 30 ms​
Neutral debouncing delay 200 ms​

Road Impacts
30 Hz to 40 Hz​
Gamma 2.00​
Threshold 85​
Min force 0​
Input gain 80​
Delay 0 ms​

Road Vibration
8 Hz to 40 Hz​
Gamma 3.00​
Threshold 80​
Min force 0​
Input gain 75​

Wheel Slip
13 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 0​
Min force 15​
Input gain 100​
Delay 10 ms​
11 Hz to 7 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 2​
Min force 20​
Input gain 100​
Delay 20 ms​


Buttkicker LFE beneath center front of the seat

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
12 Hz to 72 Hz​
30 km/h to 100%​
Gamma 1.25​

RPM
30 Hz to 120 Hz (general)​
54 Hz to 18 Hz (max)​
56 Hz to 24 Hz (max)​

Gear Shift
None​

Road Impacts
30 Hz to 40 Hz​
Gamma 2.00​
Threshold 85​
Min force 0​
Input gain 80​
Delay 0 ms​

Road Vibration
None​

Wheel Slip
13 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 0​
Min force 15​
Input gain 100​
Delay 10 ms​
11 Hz to 7 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 2​
Min force 20​
Input gain 100​
Delay 20 ms​


Clark TST 329 on the seat back

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
None​
RPM
36 Hz to 120 Hz (general)​
36 Hz to 24 Hz (idle/low)​
72 Hz (idle/low/peak)​
9 Hz to 18 Hz (peak)​
Gear Shift
54 Hz​
Duration 80 ms​
Delay 0 ms​
36 Hz​
Duration 120 ms​
Delay 20 ms​
18 Hz​
Duration 160 ms​
Delay 40 ms​
Neutral debouncing delay 200ms​
Road Impacts
75 Hz to 60 Hz​
Gamma 2.00​
Threshold 85​
Min force 0​
Input gain 80​
Delay 30 ms​
Road Vibration
36 Hz​
Gamma 4.50​
Threshold 51​
Min force 0​
Input gain 20​
Wheel Slip
None​


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 beneath the driver's left thigh

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
42 Hz to 130 Hz​
60 km/h to 100%​
Gamma 1.40​
RPM
None​
Gear Shift
None​
Road Impacts
75 Hz to 60 Hz​
Gamma 2.00​
Threshold 85​
Min force 0​
Input gain 80​
Delay 30 ms​
Road Vibration
72 Hz to 63 Hz​
Gamma 5.00​
Threshold 0​
Min force 0​
Input gain 20​
Wheel Slip
63 Hz to 76 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 2​
Min force 10​
Input gain 50​
Delay 0 ms​


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 on left side of seat

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
None​

RPM
48 Hz to 180 Hz (general)​
72 Hz (low/peak)​
54 Hz to 18 Hz (max)​

Gear Shift
None​

Road Impacts
None​

Road Vibration
55 Hz to 45 Hz​
Gamma 2.50​
Threshold 40​
Min force 10​
Input gain 50​

Wheel Slip
77 Hz to 44 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 2​
Min force 20​
Input gain 100​
Delay 20 ms​



Dayton DAEX32EP-4 on left lower back of seat

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
None​

RPM
None​

Gear Shift
None​

Road Impacts
60 Hz to 70 Hz​
Gamma 5.00​
Threshold 25​
Min force 10​
Input gain 25​
Delay 0 ms​

Road Vibration
144 Hz to 45 Hz​
Gamma 5.00​
Threshold 10​
Min force 0​
Input gain 40​
Delay 30 ms​

Wheel Slip
63 Hz to 76 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 2​
Min force 10​
Input gain 50​
Delay 0 ms​


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 behind left side shoulder

The following effect layers are active on this channel:

Speed
None​

RPM
None​

Gear Shift
None​

Road Impacts
65 Hz to 75 Hz​
Gamma 5.00​
Threshold 0​
Min force 0​
Input gain 80​
Delay 100 ms​

Road Vibration
72 Hz to 63 Hz​
Gamma 5.00​
Threshold 0​
Min force 0​
Input gain 20​
Delay 0 ms​

Wheel Slip
77 Hz to 44 Hz​
Gamma 1.00​
Threshold 2​
Min force 20​
Input gain 100​
Delay 20 ms​


In recording these videos, I've also discovered the power of the SimHub record feature. I can now go back and change any of the settings I have been fiddling with and immediately see and feel their effect in under controlled and repeatable conditions.
 
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At this point, I'm going to tack off in a different direction. In truth, I don't really much care for ACC or for GT cars, but have been working in that environment to maintain a common reference with Mr Latte and others. My next task will be to see how much of this experience I can apply to the Lotus 49 in iRacing. Stay tuned...
 
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Congratulations:
This has been an enjoyable thread to follow and glad you went with it....

It has taken a while but finally after approx 2 years of encouraging people about going this route and using an audio interface to control tactile in the best way. So is great to see you share your own findings and very much appreciated for the effort you put in and uploading not only images but also the videos. I agree the dynamic EQ from FF ProQ3 is quite cool in how it works and to watch when we set it to show the bands that are peaking. That is one awesome EQ plugin but the benefits with this route are the unlimited number of audio tools we can choose from and use.

I came back and added to this post, as your posts above deserve such attention, apologies in the long read but just had to add more chatter.

Having a quick look at the settings, I believe you and I seem to have noticed similar operational characteristics from the units as the settings shared seem on point to how I would go about doing similar. I say that with given credit to you in doing your own tuning yet to some extents, not surprising with using the benefits of the live visualization and what we feel you did achieve such nicely operating settings.


Noteworthy mentions:
Applying the drop to cover the BK Concerts piston pang and the drop for the peak with the TST and balancing the 40Hz peak with the exciters while reducing their audible noise with the higher bass frequencies. We see you using here the full bass range, so yeah excellent demonstrations. Perhaps some minor tweaks, I would go with but those can be down to personal preferences we all have or to compensate for variations in how things may feel on different rigs and materials used.

I do agree with your comment regards how the TST can almost operate well and not require much tuning with the low end. Yes perhaps with just some control in that peak range we find those have. This is why I think they work well as a more musical friendly transducer with smoother transitions than piston based units.

I also think the mid-range peak varies a bit with the different TST units and I need to reconfirm but I do think the "Gold" unit (from memory) had a bit more oomph in that 50Hz range compared to the "Platinium" model which had a bit more in the 20-30Hz.

Using Youtube's 25% playback speed.
A good example of the TST operating is @15 seconds as you approach "Druids" we can see the frequencies decreasing and reducing in energy as you are braking and downshifting, then the dB and the frequencies begin to rise again as you put on the throttle. Those with a keen eye will see not only the Hz for the top end move, but clearly with an effect layer that comes in for the low end as well to add depth/energy for the acceleration/deceleration being applied.

Also with the BK video, a large spike when you place the left wheels on the grass @1:11and we can see the dynamic eq putting to work the notch filter at 20-30Hz to protect the unit from piston pang, yet still plenty of low bass and the generated harmonics from those also being active to the 150Hz+ range at the -10db level.



Requests:
You might not want to do these or be bothered but it would be appreciated to use for examples.
Can you edit your post above to add a screenshot of the Hz that was used for the effects that are operating in the videos. This will help people see what range of frequencies are being generated in comparison to the frequencies applied in the settings. Just think it would be a nice addition but its your thread so choice is yours.

Can you confirm, no issues with piston pang yet at the same time getting a meaty and immersive low bass? How hard did you find it getting a balance of the different units to gel and work together, each with their own additions to the immersion?

Regards community members who may question the purpose or benefits of using these DSP features. Can you for the benefit of others before moving on to trying other cars/sims. Do a comparison with using the tuned settings you have to using the tactile in a normal manner with none and only the standard amplification. Another query that has cropped up, do you think it is worth using the DSP tuning on the exciters. I know you mentioned about controlling their audible range but in your own findings what is your thoughts on that?

I don't want to put words in your mouth neither, so do feel free to express how well this is working or if you think certain factors have left you a bit disappointed? One factor of course, is regarding the effects being used and while you may have some of your own or some I shared with you. What we experience will be in part to how good the effects are. This too I believe is partly also a user preference thing, again whats your views?

This is one area in the future I would like to get people like yourself in combining our experiences and usage to help towards further improving effects that can work well on different sims using this concept of combining large BK/TST/Exciter units.

This is a superb illustration of using tactile properly to a high-performance level.
Once again thanks and I hope your tactile immersion brings you a lot of enjoyment.
 
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Thanks so much for your feedback, @Mr Latte. I have edited my previous post to include information about the frequencies and other characteristics of the effects active on each channel. The screen shots were too confusing, so I've summarized that information instead.

Yes, I can confirm that I have not had any issues with piston slap with these settings and that the low end of the BK LFE is strong. I feel like I still have quite a bit of work to do to get all elements working together most efficiently and also to balance the tactile effects with the motion platform and FFB from the wheel. But it feels like I am gradually converging on something that will be very satisfying.

I've recorded and will post later this afternoon some comparative videos without any of the DSP filters engaged. I think you'll find that interesting and that it will be visually apparent that there is a benefit having DSP tuning on the exciters. I'll share more thoughts on that and the other points you've raised when I post the videos later today.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Are there any good multi-channel equalizer software packages out there for people like myself with an NX-4 6000 that has no built in DSP control ?

Anything on this list maybe?

Most soundcards come with their own EQ, not super fancy though, usually just 10 band.

Ping @Ormy, he can help with EQ APO, it's fairly straightforward though.
The discussion
 
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Are there any good multi-channel equalizer software packages out there for people like myself with an NX-4 6000 that has no built in DSP control ?

Anything on this list maybe?

I have had some experience with Equalizer APO and with Banana (as well as Potato, Virtual Audio Cable, and ASIO Bridge from the same vendor). Equalizer APO did a decent job for me on running my eight DAEX32EP-4 exciters through the two Behringer EPQ304 amps (which lack internal DSP), but only because I ran all of these channels from the same audio card and applied the same filter settings to all eight exciters. It wouldn't be a good choice if you need to run units with different settings or needed something that could work with multiple audio cards. Its user interface is also pretty poor, in my opinion.

The biggest problem I encountered in using software DSP packages was trying to figure out how to route the signal from SimHub to the software and then out over an audio card. I experimented with a couple of different options, including the ones from Voicemeeter listed above. But I could never get any of them to work. I wouldn't recommend something as extravagant as the RME UFX audio interface I happened to have on hand, but I do think a hardware audio interface of some sort is going to be the most effective route and that, once you have that, there are scores of excellent software signal processing tools available to you -- some of them free (such as Cakewalk since its acquisition by BandLab).

I would think that something like one of these 8-channel USB audio interfaces would be a reasonable choice:
M-Audio
Focusrite
 
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I actually have a Focus right USB box. I've used it with a calibration microphone for frequency sweeps dialing in my dipole speaker positions.

I think it goes both ways. I haven't pulled it out of its box in a few years.

Hmmm... balanced in and line out in the back.
20200812_175219.jpg
 
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...
Regards community members who may question the purpose or benefits of using these DSP features. Can you for the benefit of others before moving on to trying other cars/sims. Do a comparison with using the tuned settings you have to using the tactile in a normal manner with none and only the standard amplification. Another query that has cropped up, do you think it is worth using the DSP tuning on the exciters. I know you mentioned about controlling their audible range but in your own findings what is your thoughts on that?
...

I re-ran the telemetry file with all of the DSP filters disabled to provide a basis for comparison. I think it should be quite clear from these videos that the crossover filters bring significant benefit, not only for the larger transducers, but also for the smaller exciters. Had I increased the gain to match the output with DSP enabled, I would have had to turn off the amps to avoid damaging the units. With the DSP operating, its possible to focus output on the wanted range and also increase the overall gain without distortion and without risk of damaging the hardware.

Buttkicker LFE behind the left rear of the seat


Buttkicker LFE beneath center front of the seat


Clark TST 329 on the seat back


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 beneath the driver's left thigh


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 on left side of seat


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 on left lower back of seat


Dayton DAEX32EP-4 behind left side shoulder

 
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Thanks again for taking the time to show these and yes it is no surprise to me what you are saying but it is good for others to also get "your own feedback" to confirm things you and I know and why the recommendation to use the DSP is indeed beneficial and important for those seeking more control and performance from their tactile. Even as highlighted, budget tactile can be tuned to operate more to how we want them with the effects we want to use them with.

Importance of "Crossover Filters" @EsxPaul to enhance the effects and the frequencies they use.

Have you decided to run the BK with a wider frequency range? Can you explain why this would be than say limit the large BK to only @40-50Hz or is it based on the effects you have in mind for that unit what determines what range you want to use on it?


Clarification:
One reason, I asked you to edit and add the settings being used for the first videos you shared was to highlight what frequencies were being used in Simhub in settings for effects and what Simhub was indeed actually generating for the transducers to deliver based on those settings.

With a quick glance, you have effects using from 3Hz-40Hz for the first BK video with a crossover in place.
Yet it is clear to see frequencies being generated that are well above 40Hz being set in Simhub, errr, ahhh, mmm why are the frequencies going to above even160Hz?

In the second set of videos with the DSP being used to be turned off. We can see a huge difference as now the crossover is no longer functional and higher frequencies from naturally generated harmonics are visibly activity into 1-2Khz+ range being generated.

@Ormy has questioned me in other discussions, why we would apply a crossover filter on a large BK if we only are using low frequencies like only upto 60Hz in effects for it. The videos speak for themselves for him or others that think SImhub gives full control over generated frequencies or that, if we use just low Hz in Simhubs settings that's all the units will generate.

Being able to see what the audio is doing can be a big benefit to understanding not just how the audio is working but also how we can then learn to build better effects.
 
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Have you decided to run the BK with a wider frequency range? Can you explain why this would be than say limit the large BK to only @40-50Hz or is it based on the effects you have in mind for that unit what determines what range you want to use on it?

I set the LFE low pass filters based on the capabilities of the transducers and characteristics of my rig and before I'd decided which effects at what frequencies would be routed where. Now that I have a clearer idea of how I will use them and he division of labor among the various units, I will probably go back and constrain the upper end of the LFE frequencies. I'm honestly not sure at this point how much of the energy coming through these devices above, say, 50 Hz is contributing to or distracting from my experience. So one of the next tasks I had in mind was to gradually dial it back to see what helps or hinders the experience.
 
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Clarification:
One reason, I asked you to edit and add the settings being used for the first videos you shared was to highlight what frequencies were being used in Simhub in settings for effects and what Simhub was indeed actually generating for the transducers to deliver based on those settings.

With a quick glance, you have effects using from 3Hz-40Hz for the first BK video with a crossover in place.
Yet it is clear to see frequencies being generated that are well above 40Hz being set in Simhub, errr, ahhh, mmm why are the frequencies going to above even160Hz?

In the second set of videos with the DSP being used to be turned off. We can see a huge difference as now the crossover is no longer functional and higher frequencies from naturally generated harmonics are visibly activity into 1-2Khz+ range being generated.

Yes, I also thought it was instructive to see the harmonics that are being generated. These become very obvious once you remove the crossover filters. I may make some additional videos later with just a single active effect layer to drive this point home even further. Once we start combing layers, it will also be important, as I believe you've pointed out elsewhere, to consider not only filtering out the unwanted higher frequency harmonics, but also considering the compound effects within the wanted frequency range. This may lead me to alter some of the individual effect frequencies, but I haven't yet gotten that far.
 
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Yes, I also thought it was instructive to see the harmonics that are being generated. These become very obvious once you remove the crossover filters. I may make some additional videos later with just a single active effect layer to drive this point home even further. Once we start combing layers, it will also be important, as I believe you've pointed out elsewhere, to consider not only filtering out the unwanted higher frequency harmonics, but also considering the compound effects within the wanted frequency range. This may lead me to alter some of the individual effect frequencies, but I haven't yet gotten that far.

Yeah, more comparisons would be good to share with people.
As you know already you can use the rec feature in Simub to repeat a recorded sequence and it can replay that for better analysis. This way for comparisons you know its the exact same output from Simhub as actual live gaming is always going to have variations in the output based on the games physics, users inputs and telemetry data generated never identical.

You can use ProQ3 to work with the same channel output to hold and combine (Purple) all the Hz generated from the sample recorded section. So is also possible to have the effects repeated on another channel but then one with realtime visualizations and one that shows the combination of all Hz from the recorded sequence that were generated.

That gives you a powerful tool to determine what the effects are doing. Of course, we can also set it to show the Peak Hz but with YT videos is easy to watch the videos in slower speeds anyways.


I set the LFE low pass filters based on the capabilities of the transducers and characteristics of my rig and before I'd decided which effects at what frequencies would be routed where. Now that I have a clearer idea of how I will use them and he division of labor among the various units, I will probably go back and constrain the upper end of the LFE frequencies. I'm honestly not sure at this point how much of the energy coming through these devices above, say, 50 Hz is contributing to or distracting from my experience. So one of the next tasks I had in mind was to gradually dial it back to see what helps or hinders the experience.

Yes thats the great thing with this the user can tune things to suit what they like and if they are using only a single unit or have others operating for those to do more with the higher frequencies. Depends on the user what role in a sense they want the unit to be used in.

User Preferences:
Honestly think its down to what the user enjoys as well as to how they may set the crossover. If a particular type of unit is being used and we know it has operational/characteristics or peaks within the range being used. Then we just correct this with PEQ for the culprit frequencies and we remove the problem. With some units we may use the PEQ to boost certain frequencies, even though we have a crossover curve in place. The point being made is that we have all this control for user tuning and improving how various tactile transducers perform more to the users requirements or preferences.

It might be good to highlight 50Hz 100Hz 150Hz crossovers with different curves or drop per octave -6dB Vs -12db Vs -18dB etc.
Your choice my friend what you want to do. One question to raise is whats the point? Well this would be how we determine what Hz the large BK works too and what Hz other units come in at. So the user can blend these how they want.

What would be possible is, if the large BK is set to only upto 40-50Hz giving it a role of only the lower bass. Then apply to it more wattage but as we know we also have to control that 20-25Hz range with a notch within PEQ to stop the piston pang. With a small operating range you can crank more just the lowest Hz.

One more thing you can do that applies this but also can reduce the number of channels you need to use within Simhub but I will cover this later.
 
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It wouldn't be a good choice if you need to run units with different settings or needed something that could work with multiple audio cards. Its user interface is also pretty poor, in my opinion.

EQ APO can do those things but it can be a bit complex to set up, whether it is a good choice or not depends on many other factors and user preferences. The included editor UI is terrible I agree, but personally I prefer just editing the configuration .txt files directly in notepad.

Could you give some more details about what software you are using to do the spectrum analysis shown in the videos in post no.73? Would be much appreciated.

The Simhub setup you've typed out in post no.64 looks interesting, I'd like to try the BK LFE channel effects you have. Any chance you can upload the simhub profile to save my entering all the settings by hand?

@Ormy has questioned me in other discussions, why we would apply a crossover filter on a large BK if we only are using low frequencies like only upto 60Hz in effects for it. The videos speak for themselves for him or others that think SImhub gives full control over generated frequencies or that, if we use just low Hz in Simhubs settings that's all the units will generate.

I only questioned why I would use crossover filters when they seem to make no difference on my setup. I never questioned anyone else's use of them. Please do not put words in my mouth, if you want to attack my statements that's fine but please do not misrepresent what I said.

I will concede based on the videos and my own testing that simhub is putting out more harmonics than I previously assumed, more than a proper tone generator would. See my thread for further discussion of this.
 
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The Simhub setup you've typed out in post no.64 looks interesting, I'd like to try the BK LFE channel effects you have. Any chance you can upload the simhub profile to save my entering all the settings by hand?

These effects configurations were derived as a mashup from several examples @Mr Latte has posted on his threads here and on the SimHub Discord channel. I'd start with those rather than from what I posted here, which is really just to help readers understand what they are seeing in the videos. I may get to the point someday when I have original effects that are worth sharing, but I'm not there yet.
 
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