AI back out of overtakes

[Steve Worrell]

Hi guys.

Has anyone noticed the AI back out of over taking manoeuvres? I was doing a race with AI on 100% and max aggression and they would be a couple of mph quicker on the straights but speed up to the back of my car and then just sit behind me.

They are carrying more than enough speed to get past but they dont even attempt to over take.

Any ideas as to what is going on there?

 

[AussieDucker]

Unfortunately that is just the limitations of the AI in AMS. They are not nearly as bad as they are in Assetto Corsa where they just pull a hugeneral Trulli train, but they don't take many risks off the racing line.

RF2 has the best AI going around in my opinion, and might be worth looking at for your offline needs.

 

[Marc Collins]

Reiza is working on it and know about this common complaint. They can't commit to fixing it, but will try.

 

[Coffer]

Yeah, combined with how they often ignore your actions in or around the racing line in corners, it's easy to see that the AI is simplistic at best and infuriating at worst right now. I can't blame Reiza too much since it's almost certainly a quirk of the engine, but I do hope they can figure something out to fix these issues eventually.

 

[Spinelli]

Hi guys.

Has anyone noticed the AI back out of over taking manoeuvres? I was doing a race with AI on 100% and max aggression and they would be a couple of mph quicker on the straights but speed up to the back of my car and then just sit behind me.

They are carrying more than enough speed to get past but they dont even attempt to over take.

Any ideas as to what is going on there?

Been like this since before Rfactor 1, back to the F1 2002 days. Another thing in the ISI engine that needs massive updating (or a complete wipe and re-write) in my opinion. Some tinkering with AI and AI-PLR lines can help improve this (I remember some edits with GT Legends helped a bit) but it wasn't until rFactor 2 that AI behavior really changed due to "core" AI coding improvements by ISI. Reiza have the license to make engine-coding changes so hopefully we can progress from a lot of the ISI engine stuff that really stands out - and hasn't changed much - over the past 15-20 years (if not with AMS then hopefully with Reiza's next game).

 

[Steve Worrell]

Been like this since before Rfactor 1, back to the F1 2002 days. Another thing in the ISI engine that needs massive updating (or a complete wipe and re-write) in my opinion. Some tinkering with AI and AI-PLR lines can help improve this (I remember some edits with GT Legends helped a bit) but it wasn't until rFactor 2 that AI behavior really changed due to "core" AI coding improvements by ISI. Reiza have the license to make engine-coding changes so hopefully we can progress from a lot of the ISI engine stuff that really stands out - and hasn't changed much - over the past 15-20 years (if not with AMS then hopefully with Reiza's next game).

I hope they can make some changes as it ruins the experience for me. The AI basically never make mistakes and never overtake so the racing is kind of boring.

Shame because I like the quality of the rest of the sim.

 

[Andy_J]

I had a 20 lap race in the C6R class at Mid Ohio in RF2 last night just against the AI and it reminded me just how good the AI has been programmed in that sim. They really do seem to have awareness even blocking on overtakes, sometimes closing a door to an overtake and they certainly do take chances when they can. They also crash out after making mistakes. It was an absolute pleasure. I hope Rieza can do something similar with their AI routines. In fact I hope AC and RRE can do the same.
For offline racing, only RF2 does it for me. Although I go back to Nascar Racing 2003 for some epic AI racing sometimes. The other sims are reasonable but better for hot lapping and messing about in my opinion.
Edit: I forgot to say, RACE 07's AI are quite good though as was GTR2's.

 

[Marc Collins]

I hope they can make some changes as it ruins the experience for me. The AI basically never make mistakes and never overtake so the racing is kind of boring.

Shame because I like the quality of the rest of the sim.

They are not that universally bad. They do make mistakes; they do overtake. They just very rarely overtake human players on long straights even when they have the chance. They stay behind and tap their brakes to prevent bumping into the slower human. That's the problem we are talking about here, not a general issue. In general, they are tolerable, but not as good as rF2.

 

[Coffer]

They do make mistakes

Usually it's the same mistake every single lap, with little variation, such as going sideways at the end of the esses in some F1 cars at Suzuka because they can't handle the power, or messing up the chicane before the hairpin in Canada (or hitting another driver there who's done exactly that). Barring that, their lines and style of driving rarely, if ever, change.

They just very rarely overtake human players on long straights even when they have the chance.

They can't overtake each other either. Easiest example is, once again, Canada, this time on the back straight. What's worse is that once the braking zone comes up they do actually try something, but it's usually much too late by then.

 

[Spinelli]

They are not that universally bad. They do make mistakes; they do overtake. They just very rarely overtake human players on long straights even when they have the chance. They stay behind and tap their brakes to prevent bumping into the slower human. That's the problem we are talking about here, not a general issue. In general, they are tolerable, but not as good as rF2.

I agree. The pre-RF2 ISI AI can still pass in certain ways but they are very keen, as you said, to lift off the gas pedal and slow down and stay behind you even though they have an awesome run up to you and/or are drafting you. Or, if they do pull out, they pull out very early and sometimes lift when pulling out rather than drafting you right up to your bumper (or close) and then pulling out while holding the throttle down fully. It really has quite large negative impact on the AI racing since the AI mess-up during probably the most common, useful, and exciting ways cars pass and battle for position.

Regarding AI mistakes. I agree with you here too. ISI AI can be programmed to make lots of mistakes and drive very inconsistently with the right AI adjustments in the player's PLR file (and probably the individual car's AI/talent file). I've seen it in GT Legends, rFactor 1 and many other ISI engine based games. It's quite immersive and cool

 

[xnorb]

AI is altered constantly - especially the last updates make the AI appear way more lively and most patch notes contain something regarding AI.
But i wouldn't place high bets on Reiza improving the AI as much as they improved the rest - they stated already several times that AI is not their main focus and features that they promised during their campaign have the absolute priority.

Don't forget: Development for AMS will stop with version 1.5.
We might see some fixing where it's needed, but then it's called feature-complete and Reiza will put all resources on their upcoming title.

But it also depends on your expectations.
I get the impression that many sim racers ask for AI that's out to kill you to gain or defend a position - no matter if it's for 1st and you are in the final race of the season or if it's for 15th position in a quick race... I'm also not very aggressive when it comes to overtaking - i always choose a save spot over a risky divebomb anytime of race

 

[morsify]

But it also depends on your expectations.
I get the impression that many sim racers ask for AI that's out to kill you to gain or defend a position - no matter if it's for 1st and you are in the final race of the season or if it's for 15th position in a quick race... I'm also not very aggressive when it comes to overtaking - i always choose a save spot over a risky divebomb anytime of race

+1 completely agree, it's not just about the AI. I'm not excusing the failings in the AI which we know are there, but good offline racing also comes from the player's settings, which are not often mentioned when criticising the AI.

Setting the difficulty level at the right level, DAMAGE AT 100%, plus turning off stability, TC, ABS, all help to make the racing more even against AI.

Personally I would like to see the damage slider adjusted so that at 100% it is even easier to get damaged, which would further discourage aggressive starts and late braking dives by the player, which would level the playing field a bit more against AI.

 

[Will Mazeo]

There is only 2 games that you can't forget about the AI once you pass them: rF2 and NR2003. These are the only ones that would make me drive offline agian.

 

[Marc Collins]

AI is altered constantly - especially the last updates make the AI appear way more lively and most patch notes contain something regarding AI.
But i wouldn't place high bets on Reiza improving the AI as much as they improved the rest - they stated already several times that AI is not their main focus and features that they promised during their campaign have the absolute priority.

Don't forget: Development for AMS will stop with version 1.5.
We might see some fixing where it's needed, but then it's called feature-complete and Reiza will put all resources on their upcoming title.

But it also depends on your expectations.
I get the impression that many sim racers ask for AI that's out to kill you to gain or defend a position - no matter if it's for 1st and you are in the final race of the season or if it's for 15th position in a quick race... I'm also not very aggressive when it comes to overtaking - i always choose a save spot over a risky divebomb anytime of race

You should take a look at today's beta update notes....

 

[Omer Said]

There is only 2 games that you can't forget about the AI once you pass them: rF2 and NR2003. These are the only ones that would make me drive offline agian.

Have you ever tried Grand Prix 4? The best one to race against AI imo.

 

[Spinelli]

There is only 2 games that you can't forget about the AI once you pass them: rF2 and NR2003. These are the only ones that would make me drive offline agian.

- AI slipstreams right up to, or very close, to the bumper
- AI keeps throttle flat when pulls out of slipstream to prepare the pass
- AI slightly moves his line during braking phase of overtaking to avoid the player squeezing him
- many times, AI keeps full throttle when they get close or side-by-side, or when they're pulling in/out of draft, etc. They drive much more like how you'd want to drive if you were battling.

This stuff can be pretty messed up in the RF1 engine (including AMS). Some tinkering with numbers in the PLR and AI files can help - I made some improvements with to GT Legends thanks to others' advice - but to really step up the game and improve things, actual core-programming needs to be done. People have been plugging numbers into, or modifying/replacing files (eg. graphics, audio), in rFactor 1 for 12 years now - from physics to AI to sound to graphics. It's actual updating of the programming - the very heart of the software/program - that needs updating (sound engine, physics engine / tyre model, AI "engine", etc.).

 

[Maltus]

It´s a shame, so good phisics and ffb, so bad AI. I abandoned it because i´m offline player. This sim is for online, or just the pleasure of driving.

For me, actually, best AI are in rF2 and AC (big big improvement).

 

[Spinelli]

RF2 has much better AI thanks to the code of the game being worked on, not just AI and PLR file numbers-tinkering. Hopefully with Reiza's coming future title, there'll be much more programming/coding work (on all aspects: physics, sound, graphics, AI). I'm expecting it yet I partially feel like I'll be let down and disappointed as I constantly seem to be with sims.

 

[Salvatore Sirignano]

- AI slipstreams right up to, or very close, to the bumper
- AI keeps throttle flat when pulls out of slipstream to prepare the pass
- AI slightly moves his line during braking phase of overtaking to avoid the player squeezing him
- many times, AI keeps full throttle when they get close or side-by-side, or when they're pulling in/out of draft, etc. They drive much more like how you'd want to drive if you were battling.

This stuff can be pretty messed up in the RF1 engine (including AMS). Some tinkering with numbers in the PLR and AI files can help - I made some improvements with to GT Legends thanks to others' advice - but to really step up the game and improve things, actual core-programming needs to be done. People have been plugging numbers into, or modifying/replacing files (eg. graphics, audio), in rFactor 1 for 12 years now - from physics to AI to sound to graphics. It's actual updating of the programming - the very heart of the software/program - that needs updating (sound engine, physics engine / tyre model, AI "engine", etc.).

A million times yes! I've been posting very similar on rF2, AMS forums for years, pleading for AI as good as GP4.

Here's a couple of videos of my own I made ages ago, it's amazing that a pretty much unfinished game released in 2002 can nail the AI behaviour, yet 15 years on we're still crying out for AI this good!

 

[polo199]

A million times yes! I've been posting very similar on rF2, AMS forums for years, pleading for AI as good as GP4.

Quite impressive indeed. Unfortunately, AI is often (always?) left behind in many types of game. Let's just think about AI in F.E.A.R. It has never been really surpassed whereas the game is more than 10 years-old and despite the HUGE number of major FPS that have been published since then.

As far as AMS and Reiza's are concerned, there has been significative improvements. 1.4.3 has added many refinements such as better fuel and tyre management and some immersion tricks.
Reiza has still some tricks in their sleeve for AMS and 1.5 and it seems AI's P2P and better slipstream overtaking are just around the corner.
There might have been a breakthrough no later than today.

Finally, I definitely agree with Keith that proper player driving is key to getting a decent offline racing experience. And AMS' AI is much decent in that matter.