A noob's question regarding SimVibe's chassis mode

[St3fan]

Hi all, I've just started thinking about adding bass shakers to my rig. Although I've bookmarked and read through pretty much all posts related to bass shakers here on RD, I still get confused about the requirement of 4 channels in chassis mode.

Like many people who don't have a million dollar budget and are curious about a SimVibe setup, I'm looking at these Dayton Pucks in the hope that I could test it with the chassis setup (2 in the front on my pedals and 2 behind the seat) and feel how good it feels. If I'm happy about the shaking from them I'll keep them, if not I think I could get a larger shaker for the seat, and move 1 of the pucks from the seat to the shifter.

However when I start searching for a amp I get really confused. I have very little knowledge about audio systems, so could someone explain:

I read that it is possible to drive all of these 4 pucks using just 1 4-channel amp. I did some search and found that most of the amps looked like this one with left/right inputs, and outputs for all the channels:
https://www.parts-express.com/ce-labs-av400-a-v-distribution-amp-4-out--180-006

I'm confused that if I'm gonna use an amp like this one, how do I connect it to the sound card? Am I understanding the chassis mode correct that all four channels need to have different sources? Does that mean I need a 4-channel amp that has 2 sets of L/R inputs?

Thanks.

 

[Mr Latte]

Really it comes down to what patience you have and how important doing it to a good standard is. Yes a bit of wood may be okay and a hard wood is best, although some18mm MDF may be okay (not chipboard).

I'm sure you could find an ebay service or local company that might supply 4-5mm steel plate cut to the size needed. It's not that expensive neither.

Keep us posted and update with images how you get on, either way as it's your rig and what you do is your call really.

 

[St3fan]

I'm almost done now. Took me a whole day and really exhausting both mentally and physically. The rubber isolators haven't arrived yet, but via some design choices I've made enough ground clearance. Will make a separate post for the build. It is really late here, and my brain is not working properly.

@Mr Latte Sorry for a very noob question. Now The only thing in front of me is the wiring. I've purchased some now 16 gauge wires. The 2 shakers are 4ohms each right? Am I right that because these 2 shakers are different channels so I really don't need to worry about parallel vs serial wiring, and I just need to connect 1 shaker to the left channel and the other to the right channel on the amp, red to red, black to black? Thanks.

I have to go to sleep now and look forward to your reply.

Thanks again for all the help.

EDIT: in my case, seat and pedal shakers, which should connect to left and which should connect to right?

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm almost done now. Took me a whole day and really exhausting both mentally and physically. The rubber isolators haven't arrived yet, but via some design choices I've made enough ground clearance. Will make a separate post for the build. It is really late here, and my brain is not working properly.

@Mr Latte Sorry for a very noob question. Now The only thing in front of me is the wiring. I've purchased some now 16 gauge wires. The 2 shakers are 4ohms each right? Am I right that because these 2 shakers are different channels so I really don't need to worry about parallel vs serial wiring, and I just need to connect 1 shaker to the left channel and the other to the right channel on the amp, red to red, black to black? Thanks.

I have to go to sleep now and look forward to your reply.

Thanks again for all the help.

EDIT: in my case, seat and pedal shakers, which should connect to left and which should connect to right?

I think many people that may come to read this could share of similar experiences. Putting a lot of thought, time or effort into this hobby. I applaud your determination at this time to find a working solution, even if you may want to alter, or are further inspired to improve on things later. May your enthusiasm, encourage others in future, so thank you for being willing in showing your rig and continued work.

I don't know about others but I find it very enjoyable to see and read people sharing their own journeys.
Look forward to your images and later responses.

Don't be a bit afraid to ask what seems are stupid questions, it's good that you do ask.
Yes, you are right we totally avoided having to worry about matching the ohms of the tactile units to that of the amplifier as both are 4 ohms. One to the left and one to the right is spot on. It may be best to have the "Pedal" unit as the "Left" and the "Right" unit as the "Seat".

When you get things ready I will take you through some tests to do with frequencies etc.
I would encourage you to consider first trying the SSW demo and probably buying, As it is easier to grasp and the man behind the actual software, answers peoples questions/queries daily on these forums too. He deserves I feel the support for his own efforts thus far and more support for his software can only then help encourage him to further improve it.

We can skype or whatever if you want (just started doing this recently) and I will also help if you want to try and create for you some sound files in SSW that may work specifically well on your own tactile units for it's effects. For example, I assume it should be possible to have you feel understeer in the pedals and oversteer in the seat with suitably created WAV files. Then combine this with nice felt bumps and other effects.

 

[St3fan]

I think many people that may come to read this could share of similar experiences. Putting a lot of thought, time or effort into this hobby. I applaud your determination at this time to find a working solution, even if you may want to alter, or are further inspired to improve on things later. May your enthusiasm, encourage others in future, so thank you for being willing in showing your rig and continued work.

I don't know about others but I find it very enjoyable to see and read people sharing their own journeys.
Look forward to your images and later responses.

Don't be a bit afraid to ask what seems are stupid questions, it's good that you do ask.
Yes, you are right we totally avoided having to worry about matching the ohms of the tactile units to that of the amplifier as both are 4 ohms. One to the left and one to the right is spot on. It may be best to have the "Pedal" unit as the "Left" and the "Right" unit as the "Seat".

When you get things ready I will take you through some tests to do with frequencies etc.
I would encourage you to consider first trying the SSW demo and probably buying, As it is easier to grasp and the man behind the actual software, answers peoples questions/queries daily on these forums too. He deserves I feel the support for his own efforts thus far and more support for his software can only then help encourage him to further improve it.

We can skype or whatever if you want (just started doing this recently) and I will also help if you want to try and create for you some sound files in SSW that may work specifically well on your own tactile units for it's effects. For example, I assume it should be possible to have you feel understeer in the pedals and oversteer in the seat with suitably created WAV files. Then combine this with nice felt bumps and other effects.

Hi Mr Latte, I've finished up all the hardware connections, and plugged a 3.5mm to RCA connecting the green headphone jack on my computer and the amp. I don't feel any vibration at the moment. Is there any software side thing that I need to do?

EDIT: Just found that the headphone jack wasn't default device.
Now my whole apartment is shaking

 

[Mr Latte]

So you want to have some fun and learn something?

http://onlinetonegenerator.com/

I have a test for you to do out of curiosity for me...
Please at some point confrim how the BST1 feels in comparison to the ADX with these tones:
You can test individual tones or set a sweep for this 10-130Hz range.

Score the best feeling as 5
Score the weakest as 1
Score others what you think in between

Try these at different volumes as well doing 3 or so attempts

10Hz =
20Hz =
30Hz =
40Hz =
50Hz =
60Hz =
70Hz =
80Hz =
90Hz =
100Hz =
110Hz =
120Hz =
130Hz =

When you learn to understand how/what Hz feel best/worse on your rig with your units then you have a baseline in how/which Hz may be considered or specifically used for Simvibe or SSW effects.

 

[St3fan]

ADX shook loose when I was playing 40Hz... I'll need to redo the mount now

 

[Mr Latte]

Oh darn broke it already

 

[Mr Latte]

Try giving this a wee go...
Might be excellent at showing if reverb in vibrations of the materials is causing an issue.

 

[St3fan]

all right things mounted, but unfortunately I don't think I could do tests now for you because most of the vibration made by the ADX under the seat seems to be absorbed by everything except myself. I'll wait for the rubber isolators and see.

 

[Mr Latte]

Tis no rush but maybe you can share/show what you've done so far?

 

[St3fan]

I'll compile and make a separate post later on, but now here is my story in these 2 days.

First is the items that I purchased from PartsExpress. As you can probably tell, although the ADX Maximus costs like 3 times that of the Dayton BST-1, the Dayton comes with a much better package. The amp is a bit weird, the power output does not go all the way in. I don't know if it is correct but I'm gonna contact PartsExpress.

First I get a small piece of oak, and mount the Dayton for the pedals:

The back side of the Dayton is flat with soft material covering the entire surface, which is easy to mount on a wood board.

The back side of the ADX Maximus only has soft material covering part of the back, so the center part is slightly higher than the rest. When I'm mounting it I find it really tricky to keep all 4 corners at similar torque when mounting on the wood board. The shaker keeps tilting a tiny bit, and before I lock all 4 down I keep breaking wood screws (cap falls off before it is screwed completely in). I actually have broken 4 wood screws.

I put a small washer at each corner to balance the four corners with the center area, and cut a small piece of heat shrink to avoid metal to metal contact. But this turns out to be a mistake. More on that later.

I use 4 40mmx40mm brackets that are made for the aluminum profile and mount the board with the ADX onto the bottom of the chair. By setting the brackets in this way the board for the ADX is raised, so there is enough ground clearance for the unit.

The wood screws I've bought to mount the ADX seem to be too long, and I keep breaking them. As mentioned before I try to put a washer under it, but actually when put upside down the washer is not fully compressed onto the shaker, so there is very annoying rattle noise. I'm going to remove the washers later tonight - which requires taking off the chair... o dear.

Temporarily "finished" look. The cables look like a mess but I've actually tied all the cables together. After getting the rift I take down my triple screen setup, and the old triple monitor mount can be used to hang all the Oculus rift stuff.

The shaker under the chair. It is really close to the floor so it's quite hard to do anything without taking the seat out.

The amplifier sits behind the shifter on a cable management case, both secured by velcro.

The Dayton BST-1 for the pedals. So far I have got zero issue with this part of the setup. The seat and the ADX on the other hand has been a nightmare.


I've only tested the system for very brief time, but here are some findings:

1. Maybe I don't need the washer at all. The rattling sound really is annoying. I'm so gonna redo the ADX.
2. The Dayton shaker actually is quite strong.
3. The Dayton shaker shakes well at and above 40Hz. At 20 and 30Hz I couldn't feel it.
4. The entire apartment shakes when the 2 shakers are being used.
5. I tried the NoLimit rollercoaster sim, and with this audio stereo setup, I could clearly hear game audio coming from the shakers (I think mostly from the Dayton but I'm not 100% sure). Maybe I need some cut-off frequency for the shakers?
6. With current setup, I have a huge issue which is the vibration at the pedal can be felt much stronger than the seat (at pedal it's directly behind my food and everything is either wood or aluminum, but at the seat there are more soft stuff), so when I can just feel something happening with my butt, the Dayton is already killing my feet and legs and trying to tear down the building. There definitely needs some tweaking between the channels, but I think maybe with this Rift+mirroring audio tactile setup it is not viable.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Thank you @Mr Latte again for the help.

 

[St3fan]

BTW this buddy that I sat over the weekend shed crazily. Before I started making this setup and took off the car seat, I didn't know there was so much fur all over the floor and under my rig

 

[Mr Latte]

Hey good posts and thanks for taking the effort and time with images....

I can see reasons for issue with the ADX and mainly that you have limited contact to the 8020 and then as much as the energy can travel down into the main frame as go up into the seat. This is also evident in the amount of shaking going into the floor that you describe.

You could bolt the ADX to the wood with washer and nut to make the connection tight/firm.
The rubber pad is shaped that way for a reason. It's possible to help this models internal component move from the external of the case. As the unit generates vibrations internally, eventually it reaches a point where the Hz generated actually makes the whole unit vibrate. I believe on this model the "fs" rating is 40Hz. May be best to remove the additional pads if attaching with new small bolt/washer/nut.

For your issue with pedals being stronger goto here and click balance controls.
Here you could have a temp solution perhaps until you get the ADX performing better.
In SSW its possible to create effects only operate on either unit and then you could increase their own volume within the software.

 

[Mr Latte]

Only for consideration:


edit

Option 1: (RED SQUARE)
Square panel/plate section bolted to seat runners, in full contact with them.
ADX in center. It would be possible to have direct contact with the underside of the seat, when you sit in it with perhaps another panel/plate to bridge the gap. Use some rubber or foam to ensure the springs of the seat are not making noise/contact to these panels/plates.

Option 2:
H shaped panel/plate section bolted to seat runners, in full contact with them.
ADX in center. Again it would be possible to have contact directly with the underneath using some creativity. Not just rely on contact being made from the sides.

(GREEN SIDES)
*If you made sure left/right sides of an "H" are wide enough to secure an ADX. That in future if going for STEREO and needed you could cut away the center piece of the "H" to then have two independent sides for L/R units into each seat rail. They may need to be wider than illustrated here.

The 80/20 shown in this image could have 4x the isolators I showed you to isolate this seat section from the mainframe. Then the mainframe having its own feet you are already waiting on. This may mess around with the height but would certainly improve the tactile.

Examples:
Neoprene Rubber

 

[St3fan]

Thanks @Mr Latte for the reply. What does the green and red lines mean?

I noticed the 40Hz thing on the ADX it was very easily noticeable.

So I assume my problem can be solved if I can separate the seat from the rest of the rig? Like raise it up? Is there any way that I can keep some sort of rigid connect between the seat and base but still get isolation?

 

[Mr Latte]

See edits to previous thanks...

 

[St3fan]

Thanks. I tried quite a few ideas today, and decided to keep the old design and see what happens with some rubber isolator and raise the seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks. I tried quite a few ideas today, and decided to keep the old design and see what happens with some rubber isolator and raise the seat.

Okay, it's not always fun taking a rig apart and doing such but I think you rushed into the purchase a bit without really planning ahead how you would install. Even with the isolators improvements are possible it just depends if you feel you need or want to apply such at a later time.

The isolators on this seat section will help....
Although I noticed some of the isolators you mentioned that were cheaper on Parts Express are not that big. I don't know what you purchased or how good they are to the ones linked. Linked you them as I know they are good for feet on 45 80/20 profile. An alternative would be Buttkickers own isolators which have a smaller diameter (approx 45mm) but are quite firm and good too. Isolators come in various compounds for different weights and usages so not all will be that great for your requirements.

I have recommended these quite often to people as well for underneath the cockpit.
Floor Tiles & Popular UK/ Europe Brand

As mentioned before, the better surface contact and larger area of contact you can have, in connecting the tactile to the actual seat then the better the tactile will spread/flow and likely require less watts as you're basically increasing the efficiency of how and where the vibrations go.

 

[St3fan]

I had incorrect idea of how they work and how they convey energy. I look forward to what happens next.

 

[Mr Latte]

I had incorrect idea of how they work and how they convey energy. I look forward to what happens next.

Its all good friend, stay positive...

Coming at it new and learning, discovering or improving. I think it's great to see you share with people here, as others can benefit from your own experiences and input. Hiccups or issues are expected and once you have it working better it will be more enjoyable.

Can you do the frequency test with the BST1 as it can go towards models/scores I have collected over the years from those I have helped based on their own scores? If you get no response with some Hz then value it with 0.

I'd appreciate your feedback if you get a chance sometime.