Very easy to say from your armchair
2019 Formula One Canadian Grand Prix
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
I'm guessing he saw that pretty late? Neither of us were in the car.
Spot on. The way I see it, Vettel felt pressured and made a mistake - not the first time. Went off the track, then after rejoining he turned slightly right the moment Hamilton (obviously carrying more speed) was about to pass. I think Seb knew exactly what he was doing closing the door for Hamilton.
Ah OK I think we're talking about different races.
I'm talking about Monaco 2016. The video from this post.
https://www.racedepartment.com/thre...anadian-grand-prix.169356/page-4#post-2987143
This is different because that chicane on Suzuka is slower and you have a large area. But, what is curious about this case is that Verstappen did the right thing to do as stewards from 89 season believed at time.
What 89 incident are you talking about?
Senna vs Prost. At the time the rules said the drive must return to track as Verstappen did. Senna return to a safe way and was punished for that. And it was not a 5 second punish, it was a desqualification.
This whole incident was super marginal. I don't think you can criticise the stewards for following the letter of the regulations and penalising Vettel for an unsafe reentry. He knew Lewis was behind him. He could have probably not gone straight back over to the racing line, and the sporting thing to do would have been to briefly slow and let Lewis pass. Who knows, he might have re-passed Lewis later in the lap.
From the comfort of my sofa, it looked like Vettel could have perhaps got out of the throttle after getting back onto track. Instead, he straightened up and got back on the power immediately because his racing instinct made him keep pushing for position. By doing so, he effectively squeezed Lewis right up to the wall. It was SO close to being a double wreck.
There's no clear reason why Vettel would have straightened up after correcting the oversteer and gone to the track edge - unless he was momentarily recovering from the surprise of what was almost a huge smash, and in that moment, forgot to leave enough space for Lewis.
From the onboards, the replays and watching it over, Vettel could have turned left and backed off to give Lewis the position. If you were driving any online race in this manner it would be a clear cut and penalty, even if you had to rally-x to keep the place.
I guess Lewis realised what was going to happen and felt quite sanguine about it. Good psychological advantage to tease Vettel with later in the championship as well. I'm sure Hamilton quickly realised Vettel would possibly get a penalty, so free bonus points and he could take it easy for the last couple of miles. If not, no loss. I doubt he would have been quite as gentlemanly to Vettel afterwards if he hadn't inherited first place
What we don't have, of course, are steering, brake and throttle traces, and all of the onboards. If Vettel could be seen accelerating from the moment he regained car control and turned right towards the wall to block Lewis, if the FIA AND driver steward were all in agreement, it's cut and dried for me.
From the comfort of my sofa, it looked like Vettel could have perhaps got out of the throttle after getting back onto track. Instead, he straightened up and got back on the power immediately because his racing instinct made him keep pushing for position. By doing so, he effectively squeezed Lewis right up to the wall. It was SO close to being a double wreck.
There's no clear reason why Vettel would have straightened up after correcting the oversteer and gone to the track edge - unless he was momentarily recovering from the surprise of what was almost a huge smash, and in that moment, forgot to leave enough space for Lewis.
From the onboards, the replays and watching it over, Vettel could have turned left and backed off to give Lewis the position. If you were driving any online race in this manner it would be a clear cut and penalty, even if you had to rally-x to keep the place.
I guess Lewis realised what was going to happen and felt quite sanguine about it. Good psychological advantage to tease Vettel with later in the championship as well. I'm sure Hamilton quickly realised Vettel would possibly get a penalty, so free bonus points and he could take it easy for the last couple of miles. If not, no loss. I doubt he would have been quite as gentlemanly to Vettel afterwards if he hadn't inherited first place
What we don't have, of course, are steering, brake and throttle traces, and all of the onboards. If Vettel could be seen accelerating from the moment he regained car control and turned right towards the wall to block Lewis, if the FIA AND driver steward were all in agreement, it's cut and dried for me.
The stewards gave Hamilton an undeserved victory. This was or should have been called a "racing incident."
From personal experience (have been racing for forty years), once the car hit the grass, there was no control. A racing car on slicks on grass is like a car on ice. From the incar camera you can see Vettle fighting to regain control as he crosses the grassy area. Once he returns to the racing surface, again he still does not have full control. He turns right, the car over steers and he turns left to counter, than right and then finally left as he regains control and accelerates. Now during this whole time Hamilton had every opportunity to avoid Vettle but chose to try and get passed him. At the speed Vettle was traveling the car naturally was going towards the wall. There was no contact and Vettle did not gain an advantage by crossing the grass. This should have been a no brainer.
From personal experience (have been racing for forty years), once the car hit the grass, there was no control. A racing car on slicks on grass is like a car on ice. From the incar camera you can see Vettle fighting to regain control as he crosses the grassy area. Once he returns to the racing surface, again he still does not have full control. He turns right, the car over steers and he turns left to counter, than right and then finally left as he regains control and accelerates. Now during this whole time Hamilton had every opportunity to avoid Vettle but chose to try and get passed him. At the speed Vettle was traveling the car naturally was going towards the wall. There was no contact and Vettle did not gain an advantage by crossing the grass. This should have been a no brainer.
Not during
Vettel went over the grass then got sideways 3 or 4 times. You can't just turn sharp left when you're flying over the grass and bumps. From the moment he touched the grass to the moment he rejoined, his car drove basically in a straight line. He didn't rejoin and, for example, turn sharply to hurry up and get back on the racing line, his car was already headed in that direction from the moment he touched the grass.
The rejoining safely rule is supposed to be when you go off track, the car is settled and now you want to re-join the track, well you don't cut on to the racing line like a maniac potentially cutting off other cars. This wasn't that situation though. Vettel lost the back-end on entry which made him carry all his corner speed straight through the chicane with no chance to turn the car. Then, when he rejoined, he had opposite lock while trying to get the car turned left. You see him applying opposite lock 3 times.
It's not like Vettel was driving fairly slowly and the car was completely planted and he just decided himself to suddenly drive into the racing line. He was shot out of the chicane with no chance to brake or turn (grass slippery plus very bumpy, high chance of spinning and making every thing worse and dangerous if he were to suddenly brake or turn). When you're flying over low grip and bumpy surfaces, you have to keep the wheel almost fully straight (even in racing games). Then, when he was back on track, he got oversteer twice.
This is a totally different situation to some one who, for eg., spins off the track or misses a chicane while fully in control and gingerly decides to rejoin the track. This was him going almost full cornering speed through the grass with no chance (no grip + bumps) to do any thing and no time either.
With regards to Hamilton. He was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. He could have easily backed off for a split second then once Vettel rejoined the track pass him whichever side there was room. Instead, Hamilton just kept driving normally like any other lap as if a car flying partly out of control through a chicane right in front of him wasn't happening.
The rejoining safely rule is supposed to be when you go off track, the car is settled and now you want to re-join the track, well you don't cut on to the racing line like a maniac potentially cutting off other cars. This wasn't that situation though. Vettel lost the back-end on entry which made him carry all his corner speed straight through the chicane with no chance to turn the car. Then, when he rejoined, he had opposite lock while trying to get the car turned left. You see him applying opposite lock 3 times.
It's not like Vettel was driving fairly slowly and the car was completely planted and he just decided himself to suddenly drive into the racing line. He was shot out of the chicane with no chance to brake or turn (grass slippery plus very bumpy, high chance of spinning and making every thing worse and dangerous if he were to suddenly brake or turn). When you're flying over low grip and bumpy surfaces, you have to keep the wheel almost fully straight (even in racing games). Then, when he was back on track, he got oversteer twice.
This is a totally different situation to some one who, for eg., spins off the track or misses a chicane while fully in control and gingerly decides to rejoin the track. This was him going almost full cornering speed through the grass with no chance (no grip + bumps) to do any thing and no time either.
With regards to Hamilton. He was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. He could have easily backed off for a split second then once Vettel rejoined the track pass him whichever side there was room. Instead, Hamilton just kept driving normally like any other lap as if a car flying partly out of control through a chicane right in front of him wasn't happening.
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Andy_J
I hate Race cheats ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Unsafe re-enter to the track. The grass was not wet, it did not make is tyres lose grip on re-entering the track. He dangerously closed the door because he knew Hamilton was trying to get past him at that moment and it was is only course of action. The rules are the rules. Well done race stewards. The nasty German got what he deserved. And another good win for Lewis who forced Vettel into making the mistake in the first place by applying great pressure which the German couldn't handle.
Exactly this. It does my head in when armchair racers, or I suppose in the case of forum sim racers, assume they still have plenty of control because they saved that drift on the grass in Assetto Corsa once. Vettel lost control on turn in before he even hit the grass, one ex driver even stated that the rear end going wasn't really Vettel's fault, and regained control when Hamilton was alongside and on the brakes. And those saying he shouldn't have got back on the throttle, pretty sure he was modulating it to regain control of the car. I'd like to see the throttle and brake traces before making any assumptions like that though.
Not quite true though, Vettel did gain an advantage by driving slower on the racing line after rejoining the track, ok due to a loss of control, whatever, but Hamilton had to brake to avoid the contact, that is Vettel's advantage. From the moment Vettel left the track Hamilton did not have to change his line or speed except to avoid a potential crash - advantage Vettel.
That's not Vettel's advantage. Hamilton had a chance to pass Vettel on the other side and even if Hamilton didn't pass, he was then right under Vettel's rear-wing instead of 1.0-1.5s back before the incident, and on top of that Vettel would have temperarily dirty tyres. All of that is advantage Hamilton. The gap between Vettel and Hamilton went from 1.0 or 1.5 seconds to basically 0.1 seconds, that's advantage Hamilton.
Yup. He was most definitely modulating or holding throttle, not even close to full throttle or he would have been spinning up the tyres like crazy along with his revs skyrocketing. He was just trying to manage and hold the car steady the entire time.
If Hamilton hadn't tried to ram his car into a rapidly disappearing space and instead backed off before he was under the Ferrari then he could go left and overtake. Vettel gained no advantage, as in the rulebook an advantage in this context is gaining time or position, Vettel did neither
