in that case - still Vettel had to though about that overtake.. as he saw that there is no room, he shouldnt overtake
2010 Formula One Turkish Grand Prix
- Thread starter Bram Hengeveld
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Ross Balfour
#99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs
Vettel was given a Red Bull sized gap to pass, he shouldn't be given anymore as that would be stupid. It's Seb's fault for turning in but really both of them should of handled it better.
It's not a difficult call here. Yes they may be in the same team but when two drivers are competing for the world championship then things like "team" take a back seat. Maybe not something that management want to admit but true none the less.
So let's look at the incident in the context of two competing drivers.
Webber held his line. Why? He could have easily gone right and attempted to cut in under Vettel. That wouldn't have worked and Webber probably knew so. What Webber did was maintain his posission so that Vettel would have to slow considerably more or earlier to be able to make the corner without hitting Webber in the process. That would give Webber the racing line for the following right hander and probably enough of an edge to get in front for the final left.
As it were Vettel was overcome by the red mist and upon gaining what he saw as track position he darted right to force some space for the upcoming corner. WHat he didn't count on was that Webber was not only closer that Vettel though but Webber had no intention to be bullied out of the lead.
No obviously if they were more like Button and Hamilton there would have been less tears and regret but the Mclaren duo were not fighting for P1 in the drivers championship.
Vettel is only fooling himself if he really believes that the relationship with Webber is not strained. Anyone could see after Webbers second victory that the two are not great chums. This is after all a competitive sport and the drivers champoinship is more coveted by the pilots than what the constructors champoinship is. If this is not so why has every driver effectively got his own team of race manager etc?
The only thing that we have learned here are that McLaren are more adept at lying to their drivers in order to prevent racing incidents between them or am I the only one that had the feeling that Hamilton had absolutely know idea about the low fuel situation that Button found himself with shortly after their little tussle.
Berny Ecclestone must be smiling.
So let's look at the incident in the context of two competing drivers.
Webber held his line. Why? He could have easily gone right and attempted to cut in under Vettel. That wouldn't have worked and Webber probably knew so. What Webber did was maintain his posission so that Vettel would have to slow considerably more or earlier to be able to make the corner without hitting Webber in the process. That would give Webber the racing line for the following right hander and probably enough of an edge to get in front for the final left.
As it were Vettel was overcome by the red mist and upon gaining what he saw as track position he darted right to force some space for the upcoming corner. WHat he didn't count on was that Webber was not only closer that Vettel though but Webber had no intention to be bullied out of the lead.
No obviously if they were more like Button and Hamilton there would have been less tears and regret but the Mclaren duo were not fighting for P1 in the drivers championship.
Vettel is only fooling himself if he really believes that the relationship with Webber is not strained. Anyone could see after Webbers second victory that the two are not great chums. This is after all a competitive sport and the drivers champoinship is more coveted by the pilots than what the constructors champoinship is. If this is not so why has every driver effectively got his own team of race manager etc?
The only thing that we have learned here are that McLaren are more adept at lying to their drivers in order to prevent racing incidents between them or am I the only one that had the feeling that Hamilton had absolutely know idea about the low fuel situation that Button found himself with shortly after their little tussle.
Berny Ecclestone must be smiling.
Second to that, it's Vettel's fault. And I don't think Webber can be blamed for not backing down on being bullied. Bottom line is all a sudden, driver market is wide open again with Horner taking Vettel's side on this incident.
I pretty much saw this coming from Saturday, the post qualy interview was very revealing. When asked if the reason Webber left the garage ahead of Vettel for the second run was to put pressure on his team mate, Webber replied by saying "No, I don't know what happened. It should have been me second. But, anyway, I think we left too early. I don't know what happened. We need to see what happened on the pit wall. Normally I would go second this weekend". During this, Vettel looks very uncomfortable and mouths the words "I'm sorry" and when the questions (usually two per driver as their is a limited time slot for the televised part of the interview) turned to him he looked to be deliberately dragging his answer on so as to run up all the allotted time and avoid a second question about why he left the garage second. I think Webber got the message there and then that all was not so even in the garage and the pit wall had some involvement in it.
From a team point of view I think Webber should not have squeezed his team mate as hard as he did but I could understand it. Especially if my interpretation of what was said in the post qualy interview was correct. If it were a McLaren coming inside him then by all means put him on the grass if you have to but not your team mate. I'd also add that he was probably aware at that point that having been told to turn his engine down, his team mate had turned his up, furthering his sense of unfairness. Vettel was very much mistaken in believing Webber would give him room and his subsequent action was the wrong thing to do, the crash is definitely Vettel's fault.
In post race questions for the press Mark is reported as suggesting the journos dig a bit deeper and this is (to me) more indication that he is not happy with the supposed equality within RBR.
I am also a little concerned that the stewards have made nothing about this. I'm pretty certain that, had it been Lewis in Vettel's place they would have at least investigated it. But there was no FIA graphic saying that the incident between cars 5 and 6 was under investigation or would be investigated after the race. It is clear that Vettel is guilty of causing an avoidable incident, one that changed the race result significantly mind, but I haven't heard a dickie bird about any investigation.
Whilst I am on that matter, I have also not heard anytthing regarding Ruebens Barrichello's petulant tossing away of his steering wheel at Monaco. Not only was a direct contravention of the rules stipulating that drivers must replace the wheel before leaving a stricken car but it was also very dangerous. That wheel could have gone anywhere from that point. There is little or no catch fencing at Monaco and if it had been spat out by a wheel (rather than getting dragged along under a wing or floor like it did) it would have turned into a lethal projectile. I'm sure Sir Frank would have docked the $20,000 out of any contractual payments, he's a hard man when it comes to, among other things, money, but surely the FIA should also have penalised the sulky little Brazillian. When you consider the harshness dealt to Schumacher for what was a cheeky and misinformed (but entertaining) move, how has Barrichello got away with that?
From a team point of view I think Webber should not have squeezed his team mate as hard as he did but I could understand it. Especially if my interpretation of what was said in the post qualy interview was correct. If it were a McLaren coming inside him then by all means put him on the grass if you have to but not your team mate. I'd also add that he was probably aware at that point that having been told to turn his engine down, his team mate had turned his up, furthering his sense of unfairness. Vettel was very much mistaken in believing Webber would give him room and his subsequent action was the wrong thing to do, the crash is definitely Vettel's fault.
In post race questions for the press Mark is reported as suggesting the journos dig a bit deeper and this is (to me) more indication that he is not happy with the supposed equality within RBR.
I am also a little concerned that the stewards have made nothing about this. I'm pretty certain that, had it been Lewis in Vettel's place they would have at least investigated it. But there was no FIA graphic saying that the incident between cars 5 and 6 was under investigation or would be investigated after the race. It is clear that Vettel is guilty of causing an avoidable incident, one that changed the race result significantly mind, but I haven't heard a dickie bird about any investigation.
Whilst I am on that matter, I have also not heard anytthing regarding Ruebens Barrichello's petulant tossing away of his steering wheel at Monaco. Not only was a direct contravention of the rules stipulating that drivers must replace the wheel before leaving a stricken car but it was also very dangerous. That wheel could have gone anywhere from that point. There is little or no catch fencing at Monaco and if it had been spat out by a wheel (rather than getting dragged along under a wing or floor like it did) it would have turned into a lethal projectile. I'm sure Sir Frank would have docked the $20,000 out of any contractual payments, he's a hard man when it comes to, among other things, money, but surely the FIA should also have penalised the sulky little Brazillian. When you consider the harshness dealt to Schumacher for what was a cheeky and misinformed (but entertaining) move, how has Barrichello got away with that?
I'm going to post some screencaps here-big images, watch out. They are not mine-Ifound them on another forum. They just prove Webber's innocence.
This clearly shows Mark steering right-trying to give Seb more room, as he is moving over i.e. avoiding the collision.
This shows Seb steering right-not necessary at all.
These frames are from about 0.5 seconds apart, overlayed at 50% opacity, you can see Webber's nose is still pointing the same direction, Vettel's is pointing more towards Webber, just before Vettel hit Webber.
Pretty conclusive really.
This clearly shows Mark steering right-trying to give Seb more room, as he is moving over i.e. avoiding the collision.
This shows Seb steering right-not necessary at all.
These frames are from about 0.5 seconds apart, overlayed at 50% opacity, you can see Webber's nose is still pointing the same direction, Vettel's is pointing more towards Webber, just before Vettel hit Webber.
Pretty conclusive really.
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