2024 Formula One Monaco Grand Prix

Monaco is what it is, for me it is that one lap I see the best in their times defy logic and physics.
I love to see anyone try to do with his cars what Ayrton could do.
Charles and his lap is what Monaco is to me.

That is why i won't buy Foxtel or any other subs anymore.
They spend more time on ads and crap then my free to air which I won't watch apart from Live Supercars.
Rather spend money on best through the router VPN and download everything with no ads whatsoever.
Only con is you have to stop surfing for 2 days every week so you don't hear people blurting out race results
Bill Collins style, like they got nothing better to do ?

Watching replay to live is no different unless you some kind of romantic.

Durge Driven said:

Monaco is what it is, for me it is that one lap I see the best in their times defy logic and physics.
I love to see anyone try to do with his cars what Ayrton could do.
Charles and his lap is what Monaco is to me.

That is why i won't buy Foxtel or any other subs anymore.
They spend more time on ads and crap then my free to air which I won't watch apart from Live Supercars.
Rather spend money on best through the router VPN and download everything with no ads whatsoever.
Only con is you have to stop surfing for 2 days every week so you don't hear people blurting out race results
Bill Collins style, like they got nothing better to do ?

Watching replay to live is no different unless you some kind of romantic.

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replays don't bother me, even when I know the results. The HOW is just as important as the WHO.

Kimirai said:

Lol accelerate faster?i can't stop loling, maybe 0-100 and not even that, it's bs and who cares about that s*** lol, they can't reach 200kmh and they brag about 320kmh LOLOL

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Yeah, you would have been one of the group said FE was a fad and would be gone in a few seasons.

They are already underway with next Gen4Evo debut is set for season 13, faster again.
They are only 100kph slower Mexico speed trap 360+ vs 260+ or there abouts.
They are in their infancy.
Limiting factor is the battery which improves exponentially.
Future will be half the weight and twice the power, sky is limit.

I like Hydrogen and all that but ICE has had it's run.
The only real avenue for improvement these days is Drag Racing.

davehenrie said:

replays don't bother me, even when I know the results. The HOW is just as important as the WHO.

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Yeah no thanks, sitting down, bowl of popcorn for Indy and have it ruined does bother me.
But like, for about 5 minutes then watch it anyway.
As your word pun says, clever
Reminds he what a great forum once said .. ......" It's not the drive but how you get there "

Durge Driven said:

Yeah, you would have been one of the group said FE was a fad and would be gone in a few seasons.

They are already underway with next Gen4Evo debut is set for season 13, faster again.
They are only 100kph slower Mexico speed trap 360+ vs 260+ or there abouts.
They are in their infancy.
Limiting factor is the battery which improves exponentially.
Future will be half the weight and twice the power, sky is limit.

I like Hydrogen and all that but ICE has had it's run.
The only real avenue for improvement these days is Drag Racing.

Click to expand...

oh come one, this again Battery never has and never will "improve exponentially". There are baby steps taken to improve the capacity and there is nothing realistic on the horizon to improve the current state drastically, it rather looks like the capacity increase curve is flattening.

Formula E is dead slow, they are roughly same speed as Formula 4, which is raced by kids. In addition the capacity of the batteries is so low, that the drivers can't push, but it is more about conserving energy, then actual racing. No one wants to lead, and the leader is never pushing. Formula E is closer to road bike racing (not motorbikes, but Tour de France and alike) then actual car racing.

pz666 said:

The regulations are definitely the big issue there...

Small, nimble and higher tech is what I like in an open wheeler... Hence I like Formula E as much as I do...

The first hydrogen only fuel series will also be a big tech geek tune in moment for me...

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Formula E small and nimble? Length above 5m which is still longer then most road cars. Weight is higher then current Formula 1 cars. Grip of tires is way less, so actually they are less nimble then F1 cars. I guess what you meant is that you like slower cars, where close racing isn't that dangerous and works out more often without crashes.
In terms of higher tech - both F1 and F.E are pretty similar in that regard, in pushing hybrid and electric engines, recup, etc. You may not like F1, but it is crazy to claim that they are "not high tech".

Celestiale said:

I guess what you meant is that you like good racing where the talent of the drivers shines through over all else.

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Fixed it for you

FE doesn't suffer from aero wash behind another car, making the car more agile when following another car than an F1 car where they still struggle even after a move to more ground effects...

They are also more nimble than an F1 car at slower corners and will be able to accelerate faster than them next season making them even more nimble out of the corners than they already are... The wheelbase makes a big difference into and out of the slower stuff as it stands without the 4WD...

Both of which at Monaco is a big thing...

F1 cars have been too big for Monaco since the late 70s... The current DRS racing has been bland as all hell... FE doesn't need that to have good racing at Monaco...

Also "high tech" yes, but not the leading edge of technology that they were once, that's been marketing for the last decade plus... FE is far more complex with the gen 3 car, the gen 3 evo will be even more complex, and then there's the WEC prototypes...

They 2 seconds slower then F3 at Monaco.
Swap tyres on them, then see how that goes.

China is good track and 2 great races.
In a few more gen they have charging sorted, with pitstops run longer races, use more power.

What I should have said is battery tech improves opposed to F1 being at it's physical limits.

Celestiale said:

Formula E small and nimble? Length above 5m which is still longer then most road cars. Weight is higher then current Formula 1 cars. Grip of tires is way less, so actually they are less nimble then F1 cars. I guess what you meant is that you like slower cars, where close racing isn't that dangerous and works out more often without crashes.
In terms of higher tech - both F1 and F.E are pretty similar in that regard, in pushing hybrid and electric engines, recup, etc. You may not like F1, but it is crazy to claim that they are "not high tech".

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Grip and nimbleness are two different things.

LOL no one in the world cares about formula e and never will.

pz666 said:

Fixed it for you

FE doesn't suffer from aero wash behind another car, making the car more agile when following another car than an F1 car where they still struggle even after a move to more ground effects...

They are also more nimble than an F1 car at slower corners and will be able to accelerate faster than them next season making them even more nimble out of the corners than they already are... The wheelbase makes a big difference into and out of the slower stuff as it stands without the 4WD...

Both of which at Monaco is a big thing...

F1 cars have been too big for Monaco since the late 70s... The current DRS racing has been bland as all hell... FE doesn't need that to have good racing at Monaco...

Also "high tech" yes, but not the leading edge of technology that they were once, that's been marketing for the last decade plus... FE is far more complex with the gen 3 car, the gen 3 evo will be even more complex, and then there's the WEC prototypes...

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Ok there are a few valid points, but a few are overly optimistic.
- Yes, they have less aero wash, because they have less aero, hence they are slower in the corners. You could also do the same for Formula 1, but the goal for Formula 1 was always to have the fastest race car off all classes, means also the fastest in the corners. Would be very odd if F1 would become slower then Indy and still call themselves "F1".
- Able to accelerate faster? This one you get very wrong. First of all, this is not even possible with the tyres they use, they don't have enough grip. Only way to accelerate faster then F1 would be with: stickier tyres, even more aero (at higher speed acceleration) or more weight. F1 is already riding the edge of physics in terms of grip. Formula E has way worse tyres, worse aero and similar weight, so they will accelerate nowhere near like an F1 car.
- a bit more nimble out of slow corners, yes, that is true due to the smaller wheelbase.

- I agree on the Monaco part, Formula E is way better suited to the Monaco track. I don't watch Monaco F1 races, only the qualifiying, which is the interesting part of the weekend

How do you judge the "far more complex" in regards to the Formula E car? How do you determine that?

Durge Driven said:

They 2 seconds slower then F3 at Monaco.
Swap tyres on them, then see how that goes.

China is good track and 2 great races.
In a few more gen they have charging sorted, with pitstops run longer races, use more power.

What I should have said is battery tech improves opposed to F1 being at it's physical limits.

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You can't swap tyres on them, because the battery would die way too soon, that's exactly what I am talking about.
"In a few more gen" - I do not disagree, eventually this will become a proper interesting racing series, but this might be quite a while until then. Until they come anywhere close to F1 in terms of speed and race length, we are talking 25 years at best case, maybe more like 50. By then, electric cars might well be no longer the "holy grail" of the automotive world and other technolgies are coming to the forefront..

Why should F1 be at it's physical limits? That is just wrong. F1 has more areas to improve then Formula E. They have all the same areas as Formula E (battery tech, recup, electric engine), but in addition they work on how/when to best load the battery with the motor, and believe it or not, petrol motor efficiency is also still a thing - ask Toyota or Mazda, who are spending loads of R&D in that regards at the moment.



Btw, I've been watching Formula E for 5 years on and off and really try to like it, but this season I just can't be bothered anymore. As long as it is 90% about driving efficient and 10% (at max) about driving fast, I am just not interested. Once these cars are about actual racing, wanting to be fast and wanting to be first, I am gladly watching it again. But that might be a long time away.

Celestiale said:

Ok there are a few valid points, but a few are overly optimistic.

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Realistic because I've been paying closer attention, but lets do this...

Celestiale said:

- Yes, they have less aero wash, because they have less aero, hence they are slower in the corners. You could also do the same for Formula 1, but the goal for Formula 1 was always to have the fastest race car off all classes, means also the fastest in the corners. Would be very odd if F1 would become slower then Indy and still call themselves "F1".

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F1 could do a 9x8 and still have a lot of downforce, just a much higher degree coming from under the car than over the car... The reason F1 doesn't go this way is because those wings are great spots for advertising... Money wins for F1... Which is why they still race at Monaco...

Celestiale said:

- Able to accelerate faster? This one you get very wrong. First of all, this is not even possible with the tyres they use, they don't have enough grip. Only way to accelerate faster then F1 would be with: stickier tyres, even more aero (at higher speed acceleration) or more weight. F1 is already riding the edge of physics in terms of grip. Formula E has way worse tyres, worse aero and similar weight, so they will accelerate nowhere near like an F1 car.

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Starting next season their 4WD capacity will make up for any tyre issues you perceive... That's later this year...

The Gen 3 evo is capable of 0-60mph in 1.82 seconds (0-100kph in 1.86s), 30% faster than a current F1 car.

Celestiale said:

How do you judge the "far more complex" in regards to the Formula E car? How do you determine that?

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For one they don't use the hydraulic braking system of yesteryear, the entire stopping force is on the regen of the engine...

The rest of your entire comment shows just how much hatred you have for the idea of EVs and the entire ethos of sustainability that FE is based on... They've been changing punctured tyres and broken wings for years now in Formula E... The batteries don't suddenly lose power because they've stopped... Those drivers lose out because they have to use power to catch back up, even under saftey car conditions that's a net loss compared to the rest of the field...

The main issue with the battery is the regulation 1 battery for a generation... They went too conservative on the original gen 3 capacity and that led to more energy saving in the races than was planned... But they aren't changing tyres because they are going for a sustainable tyre model, less waste...

Gen 4 will be very interesting to see what style of racing they aim for...

no one in the world cares about formula e and propagandist trolls.

The more complex an F1's front wing is, the tougher it becomes for it to follow another car. For some reason the FIA remains afraid to demand a reduction of planes available per wing. Force a maximum of two planes at front and one at rear, without extra allowance of surfaces. Also, it's incredible that they re-allowed the use of strakes, which means that devices for vortex control inside the planes of the front wing made their way back into the cars after being banned for 2019.

The bickering of Mercedes thanks to them not being able to make a proper challenger brought the TD39 in mid 2022 and the raising of ride heights in 2023, plus the added wing alloewances. It all shifted the balance back from bottom aero to top aero, and wrecked in months what a technical group spent years to create, and the people in charge cared not to protect.

Most races of the first half of 2022 (up to Hungary), walk over any example that followed afterwards, where the quality of racing has quickly regressed back to what it was in 2021 and prior. The fact that gaps between teams have become smaller makes everything even more infuriating, as cars with one tenth gap in between should be able to fight to the bitter end, and yet they continue to do either banzai first lap moves to secure track position at all costs, or choose to lay back and see if several laps of pacing themselves may get them a chance of a DRS-assisted pass tens of laps further down the road.

Regarding speeds...seriously? F1 holds a +10 seconds gap to any other series in the world. They could easily lose 5 and still be the fastest by a great margin. They can cut top aero, length, go back to a shorter and bulkier car that creates more mistakes and punches a bigger hole in the air, creating more natural slipstreaming (a MUST for car racing; eliminate slipstreaming and you eliminate overtakes), eliminate onboard's bottomless toolbag, and they would still have lots of pace in hand to stamp their speed authority as the fastest road course series in the world. Gap towards all the rest has never been as big in all history as the last few years.

Kimirai said:

LOL no one in the world cares about formula e and never will.

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As a big fan of GT1 and then GT2, I thought the same thing when some crazy Frenchman proposed a slower more regulated series. Never take off I said. Too slow I said. Stephane Ratel, SRO and the GT3 classes all over the world kinda threw a Cream Pie in my face.
The moral of the story...eventually some countries will outlaw ICE just like Cigarettes. They won't instantly vanish, but some sort of replacement concept will eventually emerge. I would be courting Elon Musk to invent detachable batteries that can be swapped in seconds so the E's can keep racing for longer than a few minutes.

pz666 said:

Starting next season their 4WD capacity will make up for any tyre issues you perceive... That's later this year...

The Gen 3 evo is capable of 0-60mph in 1.82 seconds (0-100kph in 1.86s), 30% faster than a current F1 car.


For one they don't use the hydraulic braking system of yesteryear, the entire stopping force is on the regen of the engine...

The rest of your entire comment shows just how much hatred you have for the idea of EVs and the entire ethos of sustainability that FE is based on... They've been changing punctured tyres and broken wings for years now in Formula E... The batteries don't suddenly lose power because they've stopped... Those drivers lose out because they have to use power to catch back up, even under saftey car conditions that's a net loss compared to the rest of the field...

The main issue with the battery is the regulation 1 battery for a generation... They went too conservative on the original gen 3 capacity and that led to more energy saving in the races than was planned... But they aren't changing tyres because they are going for a sustainable tyre model, less waste...

Gen 4 will be very interesting to see what style of racing they aim for...

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It really won't. This acceleration is only possible once in the race - on the start. And even at start, 100-200 kph is much more important then 0-100. And guess what, F1 takes 2,5sec in comparison to Gen 3 Evo's ~5 seconds from 100-200. In the race, even 200-300 is more important then 0-100. Oh wait, the Formula E does not even make 300. It is slower then Indycar (also Indy Nxt), Formula 2, LMH, Super GT, even slower then GT3. It is really in the no man's land of Formula classes in terms of speed.

Braking with engine regen only is only possible, because their brakes are quite weak. This won't be possible with a faster car with more brake needed.

Hatred of EV? What, are you trolling? I was not the one crying out one-liners like "no one cares about this series". But I guess you just don't want to hear facts that speak against it. I am just not blindly believing the marketing bullshit, I have a degree (amongst others) in energy management and engineering and know what I am talking about.

It rather seems like you are one of those guys falling for green washing and sustainability marketing bullshit. I'd suggest, before you blindly believe this zero emission nonsense, properly educate yourself about the emissions of EVs.
Where I live, at the moment an EV creates more or less the same emissions as a normal modern petrol car. There are also a lot of countries, where an EV is worse in terms of emissions. Obviously there are countries, where it is way better, but these are mostly very small in terms of population (Switzerland, Austria, Norway, etc.) In the US it is roughly similar, probably better by about 10-15%, but it is very debatable whether it is so much better to amass tons of additional nuclear waste.

Not changing tyres is another marketing trick the uneducated greens are falling for. They still ship the cars and equipment all over the world each week, fly the drivers, staff etc. all over the world. But they are sooo sustainable, because they need a bit less tyres

pai said:

The more complex an F1's front wing is, the tougher it becomes for it to follow another car. For some reason the FIA remains afraid to demand a reduction of planes available per wing. Force a maximum of two planes at front and one at rear, without extra allowance of surfaces. Also, it's incredible that they re-allowed the use of strakes, which means that devices for vortex control inside the planes of the front wing made their way back into the cars after being banned for 2019.

The bickering of Mercedes thanks to them not being able to make a proper challenger brought the TD39 in mid 2022 and the raising of ride heights in 2023, plus the added wing alloewances. It all shifted the balance back from bottom aero to top aero, and wrecked in months what a technical group spent years to create, and the people in charge cared not to protect.

Most races of the first half of 2022 (up to Hungary), walk over any example that followed afterwards, where the quality of racing has quickly regressed back to what it was in 2021 and prior. The fact that gaps between teams have become smaller makes everything even more infuriating, as cars with one tenth gap in between should be able to fight to the bitter end, and yet they continue to do either banzai first lap moves to secure track position at all costs, or choose to lay back and see if several laps of pacing themselves may get them a chance of a DRS-assisted pass tens of laps further down the road.

Regarding speeds...seriously? F1 holds a +10 seconds gap to any other series in the world. They could easily lose 5 and still be the fastest by a great margin. They can cut top aero, length, go back to a shorter and bulkier car that creates more mistakes and punches a bigger hole in the air, creating more natural slipstreaming (a MUST for car racing; eliminate slipstreaming and you eliminate overtakes), eliminate onboard's bottomless toolbag, and they would still have lots of pace in hand to stamp their speed authority as the fastest road course series in the world. Gap towards all the rest has never been as big in all history as the last few years.

Click to expand...

Very well put...

It's all down to the regulations that F1 is in the state that it is... Indycar shows that with the right regulations, a passing aid on both defending and attacking, racing can be awesome with an over the car aero design...

But even Indycar still struggles at some tracks for passing because of the over the car aero focus... Even with it's shorter wheelbase it would struggle to put on the same kind of show as FE at Monaco as a result...

That 6 months of good racing before bending the knee to Mercedes were better than what we've seen, but they were still in need of taking more off of the over the car focus... Less complex wings and flow over the cars in general should be the focus of the next regulations if Liberty/FIA is serious about the racing elements...

davehenrie said:

replays don't bother me, even when I know the results. The HOW is just as important as the WHO.

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Did you hear about the guy who had to work on Saturday when his team were playing,?
He went to work with headphones on and played music all day, he didn't talk to anybody and looked away as he passed the TV shop, finally he go home to watch the recording his wife had made of the game...
"do you want your dinner now or after the match" his wife asked,
"After, I want nothing to spoil this match"
"I don't know why you're bothering...you won't see any goals anyway"